TRANSCRIPT

The Future of Work - Brian Liu | The CJH Podcast EP13

*Captions are taken directly from YouTube and may not be 100% accurate

[Music]

all right so welcome everybody we have a

guest today my buddy Brian Liu he's

gonna be here and he's going to be

talking with us about work and his

experience and we're just gonna banter a

little bit about this whole idea of work

and future work and things like that

welcome Brian thank you Jason for having

me most welcome most welcome maybe you

can share a little bit about yourself

sure uh first up why why the accent

right that's usually the question uh so

I'm Singaporean through and through

since birth of Singaporean but I grew up

as a Singaporean in the International

School System overseas so this accent is

not Australian it's not in any of those

right it's literally the international

school kid sound and that's that's what

it is

um that's where I grew up how I grew up

and why the sound but um in terms of

background and career-wise it's really

uh in Consulting for for over a decade

management consulting super fun loved it

different Industries uh different

leadership teams that was amazing but

then from there uh the last few years I

would say that the second chapter into

terms of my career was really in the

people space with Bose the headphones

right Bose and most recently with Lazada

as a head of uh lnod right so so to me

that the tech space and the people space

have really been my my most recent

adventures and to me that sort of pushed

me into I would say my third chapter

which is now where I'm really just

wanting to focus on on the causes and

the and the and the areas I really

believe in which of course is in the

future of work and in leadership in

people development awesome I always know

you as a person who is uh extremely keen

on the learning pillar and also the

leadership yeah so today we've got a lot

to talk about let's do that okay so

first thing

um I I usually get comments on Tick Tock

and all that and one of them a lot of

times they say the same thing Jason or

coach um

um I don't know why but when I do my

work properly nobody notices and I don't

like to be those people who like you

know blow trumpet and things like that

and I kind of tell them is like um

but that is life and that's the game so

a little bit about that is like the

backdrop is that there are some people

at work that believe that I just do good

work

done calcium is like it's okay it's done

my boss will look at me and will know it

and when it comes to promotion

everybody's fair game just look at the

quality of work what is your views on

that firstly I'm I'm I I will bet money

that the person that left that comment

is an Asian person right right yeah most

likely most likely most likely I would

bet money that it's an Asian person

because it's a very it's a culture right

it's a cultural thing it's a very

cultural thing and that's what I've

Loved about the work opportunities I've

had is because these Regional and Global

roles you see you're able to see for

yourself the huge differences and the

cultural Health culture impacts the

workplace and what that game looks like

in the office right so for sure you're

right that uh I can understand where

that person is coming from wait where do

you think we got it from as Asians

because like uh since young is always

like um we had parents that pushed us to

be number one yes right you know be good

in it I always call well and all that we

never had a parent that oh um don't talk

we never had a parent that don't talk if

you think about it we only have people

that pushed us

um where do you think it came from them

sure my one of the okay culture is very

complex right and very and quite deep

seated but one area where that comes

comes in from or where we would have

gotten that is actually in terms of

Agents being very very respective of

hierarchy so even though our parents

never said it yeah you know talking back

to them right not allowed not allowed

right being being really big on on what

you've done or your point of view yeah

no they're not big on that you listen to

me because I'm your parent I know more

right so therefore this whole in a way

it's quite suppressive and that whole

suppressive respect your elders yeah you

know know your place that's part of

where to me built into that sort of

ethos that that commenter made where you

know like hey I just put my head down

put your head down put your head down

yeah be a good boy be a good girl yeah

do your work and that's what it means to

be a a good son or a good daughter right

so that's definitely translated into

adult life and therefore some of the

challenges that that commenters is

facing so that's part of a very complex

way that it's sort of come into the

ethos for a lot of Asian professionals

yeah totally agree what do you think of

I also think that another layer would be

the education system agree absolutely

agree so when it comes to us studying

for things like uh Premiership psle or

levels there's always one answer

and the either that there's always one

answer helps us to be very good at

getting good grades right the whole

stereotype of Asians in in uh overseas

and all this like oh I really Studios

they're good at maths and things like

that yeah but it helps us do that but it

also disadvantages Us in the workplace

where for whatever reason we kind of

like there's there should be only one

way and if the boss says one way then

then go for it right it's the idea that

there's one Chinese series answer and

all that what is your view yeah yeah I

mean this I mean let's be let's be fair

to the Singapore education system

amazing strengths is produced

world-class professionals across the

world but yes absolutely right when it

comes to that being very focused on the

one right answer yeah and and more than

just the one right answer so so there's

only one way to to craft out the

rationale one way to craft out the

formula to arrive at that only one right

answer very very focused very very uh

the blinders are on right like this is

how you do it and then times you know

however many years so so I totally agree

that's definitely part of it too

um for sure so that's definitely led

into into that uh and and that

translates into a few different things

challenges right as an adult since

you've been used to that way of thinking

you see that way of communicating and

and rationalizing then when it comes to

you know

um broader discussions and lots of

ambiguity or creativity uh oh right

creative Innovation yeah right all of

that there's no right way yeah exactly

right so when Once once people that have

been drilled in that sort of you know

approach getting them to function in a

pretty different Paradigm yeah wow

that's where challenges come and that's

where if you ask me a lot of Asians or

singaporeans may lose out to to to

professionals that are actually very

flexible very comfortable with ambiguity

very flexible in their thinking

reflection people in there communication

very flexible in their approach where

there almost is no is no one right way

right which totally goes against the

world view of like people that have gone

through an education system that says

there is only one right away yeah yeah

so it's literally a Clash of Worlds or a

clash of cognitive Pathways right yeah

yeah I just uh I just read yesterday

that uh Moe is abolishing this whole

idea of normal cat normal Technical and

express amazing so they're changing it

to

um subject bending and all that so they

have they call General one two three but

it kind of like is there but they're

trying to just move that away and try to

you know have that little bit more uh

non-labeling where it's like oh my

goodness you're a normal attack you know

normal cat you know that kind of thing

and I do feel that

everything is okay so there are a lot of

good things about the Singapore

education system let's not go there but

I do feel that that does uh does make us

excel in one area which is academics yes

but in the work workplace

um we might not be used to be able to

say that I disagree yeah I don't agree

with that I think there's another way

yeah so there's a cultural aspect

there's an education aspect absolutely

the same way we can't we can't disagree

with our parents yeah same way we can't

disagree with our teachers yeah right

that's totally I remember in primary

school where when where we cross paths

where when when a student was I can't

remember if he was disagreeing or

someone but he literally got a backhand

slap hold on yeah last time came yeah at

the time when we were in school right

that was that was a culture shock for me

because I've never experienced that in

my school experience yeah but for here

that was the case right so so um again

yeah but I'll say that for you you have

the almost like you tasted Both Worlds

yes right very privileged to have seen

both so for those people who let's say

for me studied Singapore all the way in

terms of primary secondary JC and all

that

um if I disagree with a teacher they'll

say

um what are you talking about just small

textbook yeah right what happens in

International School International

Schools is definitely uh it's definitely

around discussion okay interesting

perspective why and then the whole class

gets into the debate right so so that's

pretty normal and and in fact if you're

willing to to speak up and and stir it a

bit Yeah and stir discussion uh in a way

you stand out in a positive way right

teachers respect that hey this person is

paying attention this person is thinking

and not just taking in whatever I'm

saying as a teacher right so to me yeah

it's that's and and again that drives

different Behavior since this is

appreciated I stand out in a positive

way for for dissenting or disagreeing

yeah then again that drives that person

becomes very confident yeah in in being

a uh uh having a different voice

vocalizing that right so so yeah totally

different right right so for this kind

of uh commenter on Tick Tock you know

um I tell him that there is a game to be

played and the game to be played is a

game of almost like life but when you

concise that life doesn't work yeah it's

almost like um you are a restaurant

nobody cares about your food until they

know about you so there's an aspect

where all of us we need to see ourselves

as a business right so you're buying Inc

I'm Jason yeah right and when we see

ourselves as a business we cannot We

cannot put away the lifeblood of the

business which is marketing and branding

yeah right so there's a huge part of

marketing branding where

every business needs to do and if any

business owner knows that if you don't

do marketing branding you're gone yeah

totally gone that's right what do you

feel about marketing branding when it

comes to workplace is that a place for

it in the workplace yeah no uh totally

agree where I've experienced seen it

experienced it firsthand as well and

maybe I think maybe what's why why some

people have some difficulties around one

it goes against the Asian culture of

speaking up marketing yourself that's

one right and I think the humility

pattern yeah right yeah so it's like a

yeah I like the idea of respect and

respect gone overbought yes uh like it's

like a till between your legs kind of

compliant you know it's almost like a

bit strange yeah yeah and and and yeah

with the tail that's a good image right

with the tail between your legs the

image you're giving off isn't one of

confidence yeah it's not yeah you don't

feel reliable you don't feel strong you

don't feel intelligent at all yeah you

feel like a a dog that's you know being

obedient and ready to do whatever you

say right yeah yeah but coming back so

it does show non-confidence and yes for

a lot of things in the workplace if you

don't have that confidence

um

the funny thing about it is like human

beings the human nature is that if

you're not confident you're proposing

something to me I will question more

exactly right if you're confident and

you propose something means like okay I

think this guy knows his [ __ ] yep let's

let's go for it yeah exactly exactly

right so to me I think coming back to

what you mentioned about that I think

part of the the challenge that some uh a

Asian professionals and I hear this too

right very similar to the comment that

you had was that you know I don't want

to play the game yes I don't want to

play the game I don't want to play I

want to just do my work right but to me

I think that's part of the challenge and

that's why when I do talk to to to

coaches or people I'm working with

around this I don't use the word game in

fact I use the word these are pragmatic

realities the pragmatic realities of the

workplace are this if people don't see

you hear you or feel that you are

confident uh or feel confident about you

right then again uh yeah and then again

then they will look to someone else you

will not be the go-to person it will not

be the one that they they see as a peer

or as a peer leader right so therefore a

promotion that will also be challenged

so to me if we can change the framing

change the narrative that you know this

isn't the game that you have to play but

instead these are the pragmatic

realities that you have to engage in

right to achieve certain career outcomes

salary outcomes right and then you need

to engage with these realities so I

think the framing helps like it is a

game to me similarly right it is a game

because you are playing you are having

to think about which piece strategize

all that sort of thing I get that for

sure but maybe the the framing and of

the words around it may help people

decide that okay I'm willing or I'm now

I now that I've heard from coach Jason

I've heard from coach Bryant I I I will

engage with these pragmatic realities

yeah

I personally like the word game and the

reason why is because

um different companies have different

games oh absolutely right so you uh if

you go to a basketball kind of game and

you try to kick the ball you're out

right if you go to football you try to

play with your hands you're out so

within the game there are it's almost

like okay so I need to know the rules

and within each company there is a

currency where you get brownie points

whatever the browning points is some

people the brownie points is staying

late so everybody stays late

hate that yeah I hate it right so it's

almost like um who has more OT who has

more who burned more weekends you know

that is uh oh wow amazing you're good

you're you're dedicated yeah but in some

companies it's more of um maybe it's a

it's the idea of uh you're doing uh work

that's outside so stretch projects so a

lot of my clients um especially mnc's

um yes you do your own work but when you

do your own work you just you're just

normal you're average if you don't do

stretch projects which is like oh I'm

gonna try to volunteer for this

volunteer for that nobody notices you so

the idea is some company's currency

would be stretch projects but all this

is actually trying to Brand yourself to

say that oh yeah I know Brian he did

this he did this he led this project he

did this yeah on top of whatever [ __ ]

you're trying to do but you're paid to

do yeah so one of my

um all these things can look like a

waste of time yeah to people so one of

my buddies Neil who is in grab and then

he was he he does all the work with

University students coming in and all

that yeah and he says one thing is that

he shared with me that um what is he

shared that uh your work is from nine to

six your career is from six onwards

yeah so the idea that

um so even some people's like oh do I

want to hang out with my colleagues or

my boss is asking me to go for drinks or

go for dinner

then it's like because there's a lot of

people who feel that

um they feel that I'm paid to do work

yeah why must I do all these extra

curricular activities yeah to just be

seen and they it's almost like they

don't they they find it unfair yeah to a

point where they feel that it is unfair

everybody should actually kind of lower

down

so it it's it's almost like

they need to know that just this is the

this is the way of life within this

company and this you need to brand

yourselves have you we we all probably

probably had examples of people who were

not very competent yeah but got promoted

yes

right yes for sure just because they

know how to play that they know how to

play that branding game yeah what would

you think about when it comes to some of

the moving pieces of branding a person

let's say in an organization what would

that look like

sure yeah so so I think yeah the those

that that you know those that we feel

are that we may perceive are incompetent

right they they they picked up enough

brownie points as you're saying they

they they they picked up on what the

rules were and then they were able to to

gain the brownie points to get promoted

you get to pay the bonus whatever that

might be yeah so give it to that you

give it to them credit to them right

that they were able to discern and

navigate what those what those rules

were but in terms of personal brand to

me end of the day if we sort of put the

different rules aside because the rules

are so varying as you said right then to

me I think uh how I how I've really been

experiencing it and organically learning

right how to build my own brand but just

really around being clear what you stand

for right uh and that could be in a few

different ways one you're very clear on

what you stand for in terms of how your

your your work ethic or your way of

working right right so for example I'm

very clear that I want to to to

Excellence right in whatever it might be

maybe in every slide that I I produce

every piece it needs to be high level of

Excellence high standards that's my

brand right so it may take me a lot more

time to produce a a pair a deck yeah but

everyone knows and once that comes out

from my laptop it is of very high

standard so

um it's part of your work ethic or your

values I think that's one way you can

really brand yourself

um so it sounds like

um it sounds like you are showcasing

what is inside which is the call

okay besides SCF core values your own

core values of what is important to you

and you are showcasing it intentionally

and reinforcing that because people say

that the brand is what people talk about

you when you're not in the room yeah

totally right and so for you it's

Excellence is one thing yeah that you

kind of like portrayed through slides

through how you present yourself and all

that what else is that yeah and and uh I

mean another another example that could

be uh what is is really that a

collaboration a really big on

collaboration and how I was very

intentional to to make this clear and

this blew people's minds it's such a

simple thing for for me because I I

value this but for example whenever

um I had anything I would send it out

and share with people non-pdf very

intentional I would send my deck non-pdf

my word docs non-pdf and people are just

blown away that they can't believe that

I send it non-peer I'm like yeah to me

non-pdf means editable they can take you

away that's right they can take the

slides they can take the document right

because to me I I produce good slides

produce good looking slides good content

right I want you to be able to take it

and use it for your team or your country

right I'm usually at group level so take

the content use it that's why I built it

right that's why that's why I created it

so to me people are blown away that wow

this guy is he's really truly believes

in collaboration because he's doing

things like that which totally goes

against

um you know their baggage totally goes

against what they are used to right so

to me that's how they're they're very so

as long as you're clear as long as I'm

clear that hey I really believe in

collaboration I know I must role model

collaboration yeah therefore that was

one of the intentional ways I did it and

again it speaks volumes people will pick

it up especially if it goes against the

norm in this case the norm is people are

usually a bit more kg yeah all their

stuff yeah why would I want to share

something that I put in 20 hours of

effort with somebody that they can just

take it and take credit yeah so

sometimes people will look at property

some of them will look at you is like

stupid yeah oh I'm sure totally stupid

yeah and then I'm just gonna take credit

for it and then I'm not gonna say your

name at all but I'm gonna do it but the

thing about it the funny thing is that

you standing for your brand you're

standing for your value that's right

that's right so so to me uh right there

are tangible ways to exactly what you're

saying

manifest or externalize what you believe

in internally right so to me yeah that's

uh that's important thing that people

can do right uh whether whatever level

they are even if you're a fresh grad you

can do this but the main thing is first

be clear what you stand for what it is

you want to externalize too right I want

to externalize you know uh Excellence I

want to externalize uh collaboration

right so again but that's because over

the years I've become very clear that's

what's important to me that's what I big

word value that's what I value right the

funny thing is that when I coach

um some of my clients about uh careers

within within passion so I I believe in

this framework you want to get the

highest pay you get you need to be world

class that means you need to produce the

highest performance you want to get the

highest performance you need to outwork

everybody without losing Steam and the

only way you can outwork everybody is in

areas where you're passionate in most

passionate in yeah that means when

everybody is like okay I'm done you're

still researching and know that because

there's some inner force that drives you

some of us is designed some of us is

people whatever it is yeah so when it

comes to Passion within passion there

are three pillars that I've defined one

of them is strengths things that you do

naturally yeah the other one is interest

so I got a passion I got an interest for

music yeah I got an interest with

psychology I got interest for hacking

things I got interest for many different

things logo designs but of all the

different interests I kind of picked one

or two to try out and that's why after

many different jobs I've done then I

came to okay I know I'm I'm a coach I'm

a performance coach I want to bring out

the best in people so that's two

interest strengths and the last one is

values trying to figure out the values

and what I see is that a lot of people

have no clue what their values are yep

zero clue totally zero it's almost like

what do you value like it's

they know what the company talks about

yeah

but they don't know what their value is

so I bring them to an exercise where

there are a couple hundred values and we

go into uh it's almost like a slash and

burn thing yeah which one really

shines for you

so for me I know like my values is

Adventure boldness yeah my values is

Discovery

these are these excite me a lot yeah how

do you figure out that your values was

excellence and collaboration because it

is tough yeah no it is tough and and and

and you're right uh that's probably you

know being clear on being self-aware on

what your values are yeah is probably a

big distinction between those that are

successful and those that are not right

or between those who are very successful

and those who are mildly successful

right so I think that's that's a really

good that's a very clear line that we

could draw across the globe right and

divide the the population into two

um but but for me how did I discover

that is it like by chance or is it like

is it like do you sit down one day

looking at the Yonder and like you know

what [ __ ] this is my values yeah uh no

no definitely didn't do that no apple

and no just uh staring out that way uh

for sure I wish it was that easy right

but but now to me it was it was

I don't know it's just my wiring where

where I sort of learn or I sort of

decide on things uh when I through

experience so when I experience

something extreme yeah then for me

that's when I decided okay I I look at

that extreme situation and I decide okay

this is good or this is bad yeah I want

more of this or less of this right so to

me

um uh in in my in my upbringing or my

schooling and work exposure that's where

I saw right people being kg you know

people

um you know of privilege or of network

right versus those that do not have

those networks they don't have those

opportunities so for me looking a lot of

these sort of macro societal sort of

um experiences and differences that's

when I said that's when I decided okay

is it right that the the those the the

elite or those with networks continue to

you know have that sort of

um privilege I said I was like no that's

not right so for me I want to whatever

privilege I do have you want to make

sure that I just share that knowledge

share that content therefore to me

that's how I arrived at collaboration

generation knowledge sharing or learning

is such a big thing for me because to me

more knowledge is shared more networks

are shared the more you share the more

everyone wins right so to me that's how

I've landed on on collaboration on on on

learning being very important and very

key themes to to who I am as a

professional my personal brand right so

to me it's it's usually when I'm

thinking about things it's more thing

about what's right or what's wrong from

my perspective right what's right what's

wrong in the world what's right what's

wrong in this interaction that I see

what's right what's wrong in how this

policy was decided and that's when I

decided okay by looking at that then I

decide where where I land and that's

what I value so to me that was sort of

that that way yeah I guess some people

right just you know haven't had

haven't needed to you know really have

those sort of evaluations or have those

sort of discussions with themselves or

two again it can be culture where again

what's right is to put my head down and

just do and just listen yeah and

therefore the chances or the probability

or the need for them to to to

self-reflect and decide you know what my

values I don't need to do that I just

need to put my head down I just follow

and follow yeah right so if if Parental

con the parental context societal

context and this education context is

condition you that way yeah then why why

are we why are we surprised that people

aren't aware that I have never decided

what their values are yeah there's no

need to so it's almost like um I don't

need to go against any current I'll just

flow with the River of Life and let's

take it away exactly take me away and we

know so many people they're just flowing

right but with with life and the pros

and cons of that as well yeah anything

about anything else about branding that

that you that you feel about

um

I think values is definitely a key part

of the personal brand right and I think

and I think part of personal brand again

is I think as you mentioned too right is

definitely around your your natural

natural strengths or skill sets yeah

right so again

um experimenting and finding out what

your what you're truly interested in

what you're truly good at is a big part

of it because a lot of people they made

that decision on in terms of uh what

what what job they choose yeah actually

based on other factors not what they're

interested in necessarily they're not

what they're necessarily skilled in but

what pays or what or what is seen as

prestigious yeah per se right so again

um yeah but then again that's where

burnout comes in that's where all the

conversations around burnout Etc come in

right yeah so to me um yeah I think the

in a way to to have a personal brand you

need to be brave enough firstly

self-aware but second brave enough to

decide that this is what I enjoy this is

what I'm good at this is where I feel I

can contribute yeah right and then uh

and then and therefore make those calls

make those tough calls yeah and then

start to live out yeah your your brand

yeah right so one I like um there's a

saying in terms of social media if

you're vanilla plain vanilla nobody

cares about you if you're pistachio ice

cream flavor you got lovers and haters

yeah and when you have lovers and haters

you know that your brand is strong yeah

because not everybody will like you but

the people who like you love you because

you are that Persona you're you're that

Persona personified yeah that's right so

one more thing about branding and um

some people

uh also on also uh some of the comments

I get is like um they don't want to

speak up and they do they feel like they

feel like I don't need to speak up

speaking up means that a very simple way

of speaking up means that in the zoom

meeting let's say with regional

everybody is there they don't say a word

zero yep and we see a lot of them right

everywhere then when you ask them

they're like every sport early one

that's the idea then it's almost like um

everybody the the trees and Foresters

everything is same you're not blooming

you're not doing anything so one thing I

do coach some of the people that hire me

just for like okay how do I increase my

influence and all that in the company is

that you need to you need to be seen

yeah and one way you need to be seen is

you need in a zoom meeting you must say

something that is constructive to the

meeting don't just say for fun yeah but

you must be constructive but you must

say something you can't just keep quiet

yeah

in your in your experience when you see

people who keep quiet and all that like

what do you think is in my mind

a lot of things a lot of things usually

not uh it's part of it is around

hierarchy you know if they're if they're

if they feel that they're not peers with

everyone else in the group but they're

one or two levels down yeah again I

better keep quiet let the leader speak

okay that's one big cultural Dynamic for

sure that's always usually in place

especially what a waste because of all

the talent yeah all the

all the Geniuses in people who are

actually on the ground that's right and

that's where because like in your

leadership position you see the only the

tip of the iceberg you're so far away

from front line so far away from the op

so far away from the customer yes yes so

they are the ones that need to speak up

so one thing is hierarchy that's good

what else do you think it's on their

mind that's why they don't want to speak

up hierarchy is one uh two a very real

one especially in a very Multicultural

uh region like like APAC and Southeast

Asia second of course is confidence in

in the in the spoken in the working

language a lot of people they feel that

they don't speak English as well good

English yeah good English like Jason or

Brian so you know I'll let them speak

you know I don't know right that the

confidence to to speak and articulate

themselves or present themselves yeah

present their ideas clearly or in a in a

leadership pleasing sort of way yeah or

tactical sort of way that's another

challenge for them too so language

actually is a language confidence is

actually another real challenge to them

speaking up uh for sure especially I've

seen that a lot in the Regional Offices

the regional Zoom calls yeah yeah and

they're actually the regional Zoom calls

is a good one because usually there's a

group there's as the group and then

there are the the the the local

countries so for example uh Lazada or

grab right HQ is here in Singapore and

then on a zoom call where the other

Southeast Asian countries dial in yeah

of course there's just Thailand

Indonesia and all that they're sort of

just going to sit back and listen to

what the group leaders at Singapore are

saying whatever nationality but they're

from group we're just subsidiary or just

one of the local offices right so again

that power Dynamic again very real which

also causes a lot of those in local

office who have fabulous local Insight

yeah right they don't speak up because

group is speaking so we let groups speak

right so again it's sort of it asks me

it's also sort of a an easy default if

you think about it right it is group is

speaking leadership speaking so I'll

just you know yeah why Rock the Boat

yeah exactly so there's a multitude of

reasons why why um people with really

good hands-on experience are not

speaking up uh when when they really

should so it's two parts one it's as

you're saying they you need to be seen

yeah but it's also how you want to be

seen right exactly whether it's with

confidence whether hey that was a

construct

that that I just chipped in right

whatever it might be so um yeah have to

have to engage with those pragmatic

realities true true so I think one last

thing about branding when I think about

branding

um for them is to really try to figure

out uh what they want people it's almost

like they want what do you want people

to say about you yep yep right it's it's

The Branding is the it's the

conversations when you're not in the

room about you so what do you want

people to say about you and plan it out

and you can plan it out and it's not

about not being authentic but it's about

if you know that these are things that

is important you if you are a really

caring person then showcase that

caringness right don't just think that

ah doesn't matter nobody knows and all

that but because you are a business yeah

you need to be able to Showcase because

nobody can see it and sometimes they'll

say things like one one thing that uh

some of them usually say is oh small

things don't say only say big things

right lens like you said okay then it's

the idea of like you need to work that

muscle because in Asia I do feel that

because they are not very in tune to

working that muscle of marketing and

branding to a point where you can't just

add the big thing that you're gonna

showcase it you need to build that

muscle when you're doing the small

things to be able to do that that's

right that's right yeah and to me uh I

mean just to build on that right uh and

this is sort of what I've taken away

going through the military as well as

the workforce which is that you know if

you aren't exercising that muscle

speaking up being seen right

um then how will the your line manners

or how will the leadership ever see you

as a potential leader yeah and therefore

therefore promotion basically becomes

impossible they've never seen you never

felt you they never heard you yeah how

can they ever see you as a leader right

so if you want to Aspire to leadership

you want to Aspire to impact and if you

want you know just to be able to to you

have to use your voice you have to use

your voice right leaders must be seen

they must be heard so therefore if

people don't see or hear you it's

basically impossible to become a leader

yeah there's one culture in Singapore

that's very toxic and that goes um that

actually pushes people down there does

this so when people are doing these

things yeah you know what they call them

you're what you're very what

whatever

[Music]

carry balls and things like that so yeah

so a lot of things

so even as a as a team member you

there's a deliberate very delicate game

to play yeah if you play it to uh if you

play it to one-sided you will look like

only when the boss is here you do it

yeah when the boss is not here you keep

quiet yeah so that is one thing to take

note of when it comes to are you

authentic to everyone if your Excellence

is this then that means access isn't

everything yep it's not only when the

boss sees it right it's everything else

yeah no totally yeah and and the way

we've been talking about all this it

sounds like there's so much thinking and

intentionalities to go into every part

of how you function and how you how you

function socially within your team yeah

within a meeting right that's it if it

sounds like a lot it is a lot everything

is talked about so to me that's way too

much for me to to to take in as well so

that's why to me and in the workplace

and even even before the workplace you

know in in the military I was very clear

like you know what there's too many ways

and too many angles and too many

different rules to play right I can

never know very bad at Discerning you

know the reading between us I'm very bad

at so to me I simplified for my life and

just said okay I can't continue I can't

keep adjusting and wondering yeah what's

the right way to behave what's right you

say what's the balance to strike so to

me I was just like okay so the one thing

I can focus on is me right and therefore

I'm just going to be very clear and very

intentional to stand up for what I

believe in and in how I want to lead how

I want my ways of working my work ethic

Etc uh how I want to treat people I'm

just going to focus on on me and

therefore let those that appreciate it

appreciate it let those that have issues

with it let them carry on I just can't

deal with the rest right so to me that's

why I'm in a way very introverted or

very uh inward Focus to to just be

intentional to to to to externalize

whatever I'm thinking and believing and

let everything else just sort of play

out and it's and of course it has it has

been positive for for a majority of the

time but it has been negative two-way

for example and this is uh quite in more

recent years where exactly what you said

earlier right work is nine to six and

your career is six to everything else

right

um I do a lot of uh extracurriculars as

you say right in the community space I'm

very much into Youth Development

speaking you know uh speaking uh for for

at schools and whatever it might be

mentorship mentorship all that those

those spaces and I've gotten feedback in

the workplace where some people have

said that hey I keep seeing Brian doing

this in the community uh and they said I

think he works harder outside than in

the office oh my goodness right yeah and

and stuff I'm doing that they see

outside it's it's good things it's Noble

things it's contributing back but you

but people still want to jump on that

yeah and use that against me right yeah

I can't be bothered right I can't I

can't should I then not be so open up

should I not be involved in community

out of fear of what those people might

say that's insane right so to me just

don't think about the rest just focus as

long as you're you have good conscience

about what I'm doing it's a good thing

it's a right thing yeah or it's a

helpful thing then just continue doing

that people take it up appreciate it

cool people that don't whatever just

just keep doing what's good keep doing

what you know is right to me it's uh uh

it's around building a virtuous circle

or a virtuous cycle or virtuous momentum

right just continue to do good and

therefore those that appreciate it will

join that sort of virtuous momentum

versus those that have issues love them

it's um it's a very uh simple way to

live a life where you're as authentic as

possible to what you believe in you

stand for in your values how you treat

people treat projects uh what is what do

you value the most and

um know that uh it's not a popularity

contest that you can't win everything

it's funny it's like when you're young

when you school you know that everything

is about popularity everything is about

where do I stand compared to everybody

else I don't understand too much yeah

right I want to just be a little bit in

the middle but as you go older in older

you see a lot of the elderly you know

there's so just now I just walk I just

was having lunch and all that they

actually just walk across the road don't

give a [ __ ] about anything and all the

classes just walk yeah it's like it's

almost like you grow older like you

start to narrow down to a point where

it's like I'm living my own life yeah

and somewhere in the middle is like um

we have enough wisdom to to not piss

drivers off but know that this is what

we want yeah that's right yeah yeah and

I'm sure you're right as we cross 40

yeah we're we're we're feeling that hey

you know what uh yeah I don't care about

this I don't even care about that yeah

yeah I wish we I wish we got into this

mode earlier right earlier in our

careers they're gonna be a lot sharper

there's so much sharper because you know

that you are you have all the energies

into the right place exactly right so so

uh anyone any younger people listening

get into the don't give a damn sort of

mode

uh give a damn in the things that you

truly believe in yeah be clear firstly

my first thing to be clear what those

things are and therefore which is

already so rare self-awareness is such a

rare thing yeah it's like yeah anyway so

the the one more thing and when it comes

to the future of work if we think about

future work is there anything that that

you kind of like are thinking about when

it comes to future of work yeah sure um

so this is a big one for me where the

future of work a lot of things have

changed especially with covet Etc a lot

of those changes so to me excuse me I'm

very clear that that there is a new

school of a new school of leadership

that has emerged but then that brings me

or brings us to a very to a very you

know legitimate point of discussion

which is you know is there such a thing

as old school leadership and new school

I believe that there is a new school of

leadership that needs to be clear and

needs to be articulated to meet the

needs of the the future of work which

has already arrived if you ask me right

yeah so to me I do believe that but do

you believe that there is an old school

and a potential new school that I'm

talking about here

hmm

I do believe that

um in the older generation there was a

different purpose of work because

there's a different purpose of work than

um there is there's a different outcome

that we're looking for so the old school

way of looking at things our parents

time and all that you just do your work

uh you get a salary you provide for

family yep so there is no need for this

thing called self-actualization there's

no need for I want to change the world

I'm like what the heck just try to can

you even get a job so that's why a big

thing for them previously when they were

not educated is all about degrees that's

why everybody our parents are degree

degree degree degree because that was

how you get stability in the job and

when you have stability in a job it's a

job it's not where you like come and

innovate and all that you're just doing

work right so

our modern for what would you call him

what do you call him so many things so

many things modern what do they call it

mother father of modern Singapore yes

yeah okay father modern Singapore

um one thing very interesting is that he

had a very dictatorship approach but he

was a benevolent dictator

the kind where

I know what is good for Singapore

because I see Singapore as a business so

Singapore whatever your language has to

be English yeah right it's the idea that

has to be English because the mncs were

going to be attracting that will give us

Investments they will build factories

that will give us jobs yeah English

speaking so we need to do that so

there's a lot of um

um it's almost like we go to school to

get compliance to get compliance so that

we can go into these places and then we

are compliant to the MNC so that we can

be done so if you think about it what is

the best what is the characteristics of

a of one of the best kinds of workers

back then when it's all about factories

when it's all about that compliance

that's right right so

because of that leadership there is that

dictatorship there is that I tell you

directiveness now you tell somebody

who's 25 to compliant they're like

um you know what I don't think this is

for me yeah no they're not even in such

a nice terms yeah yeah dude yeah so all

the flowery language should come up but

I think for now because the the the

stage the tide has come up to a point

where it's like okay so we already have

that foundational finances what's next

yeah so when it's what snakes we go up

to Maslow hierarchy and after food Water

Shelter relationships then it's about

self-actualization so the new leader I

feel is about tackling that

self-actualization so there must be a

new kind of leader or leadership that

tackles self-actualization and sometimes

self-actualization is not about

compliance but it's about I disagree

with you and things like that yeah cool

then then we can be friends because I

totally agree that there is a new school

of leadership yeah uh and and to me it's

because of exactly a totally different

context right Singapore for example back

then exactly as you described in terms

of wanting to attract investment needing

to build an arm compliant Army to to to

to have jobs and to just not survive

right survival and have a life have a

basic livelihood in that season of

Singapore totally uh made sense so

that's why you know his leadership yes

what he what he put in place perfect it

worked out yeah we're we're we're we're

still enjoying the reaping the benefits

of that right yes but to me um again

well even now if you think about it

yeah we're uh MNC Hub yes we are why

because English language yeah we could

have chosen Chinese we could have chosen

we were majority Chinese yeah but

Blossom allow you know that we could

have chosen so many different things but

Singapore and then the other part is

Hong Kong right these are the two more

um in terms of Asia southeast Asia and

all that these are the two hubs yeah so

we are still reaping that that totally

still reaping and that's why we're very

blessed to be born yeah super blessed

yeah but uh where's that going yeah so

in terms of yeah but but again so things

have evolved right they've evolved the

work context the future of work context

is obviously evolved especially with

again with covet accelerating that so to

me I'm quite clear that

um the future work the future of work

the demographics right of the the more

Junior people come into the workforce as

well right requires require sorry have

very different not even expectation but

have very different requirements from

their leaders yeah which did not exist

before so some of the so so to me this

is what I'm describing now what new new

school leadership is old school was that

you mentioned directive all those sort

of things uh but there are still and

Leadership gurus will say right there

there are those seminal or foundational

um competencies or practices around

leadership maybe around influence

communication those seminal pieces those

stay those are foundational right all

leaders must have whatever time and

you're right yeah but to me the new

skills the new skills new competencies

are new requirements you've asked me of

new school leadership uh I think three

that I can easily articulate right one

for sure is around so all new all new

school leaders right or leaders that

want to thrive in the future but first

up for sure is that they need to

definitely definitely be be

understanding around Dei they have to

understand what it is what it means to

people what does Dei even stand for

right so because again the the the the

staff that they'll be working with the

ESG macro trends that are coming right

all leaders need to be fluent

understanding comfortable have genuinely

internalized what Dei is what that means

for them as organization leaders or for

them even as team leaders where they are

genuinely engaging accepting and wanting

to hear and including all the different

voices before they make decisions right

so I think Dei is a very very big one

and it's not just around LGBT no it's

not about that it's just really around

truly listening being appreciating

inclusivity appreciating diverse

thoughts right to make decisions because

nobody no country has has the

decision-making rights on on the the

current future of work because it's just

so so so unpredictable right and just to

help people understand what Dei means

diversity equity and inclusion yeah

right so diversity Equity inclusion uh

for if you if you were to break that up

um what especially Equity yeah sure

equities I think diversity and inclusion

for Equity is really to understand that

that fair or what people think what what

fair means okay it's not the same

meaning that as a leader I can't treat

my people fairly sounds crazy right but

no I didn't treat my people Equity

equitably meaning that hey some people

they are strong in in certain areas so I

don't need to

spend too much time with them on that

but others are are weaker in certain

areas so therefore I need to spend a lot

of time with them does it seem fair that

I'm spending so much time with this

stuff but still a little time with that

stuff right no it's not I'm actually

meeting specific needs just like

Equitable so that means like overall it

makes sense yes but when it comes to if

you count units of effort it doesn't

make sense that's right exactly right so

so it's it's it to me it's a it's a

sophisticated and advanced uh and

evolved and matured version of what fair

means if you ask me okay so so

um all leaders need to understand what

that is right especially because with

the again the ESG macro Trend coming in

but that's a big part so again all

leaders need to understand that and

fully internalize it and accept it right

that's one uh second a big part of that

is uh all leaders must also be career

coaches

have to be reason for that is

interesting yeah I like that I like that

a lot interesting oh because previously

mncs and he said everything was set our

parents generation did one job one

company all the way through all the way

20 30 years the pathway was set

expectations were clear I just put my

head down I'm good all the way through

to retirement that model of careers

doesn't exist anymore yeah right it

doesn't anymore so therefore if those

pathways are not set

um people don't can't see where they

will be in two years time three people

can't see what my organization will look

like in two three years time so

therefore everything needs to be a

career coach to help their people one

stay uh Stay Stay mobile so they're able

to adapt right I need to continue to

upskill you so that you know if the

organization does pivot our business

does pivot you know me and my team can

pivot and adapt along the way right so

right so uh from a career perspective

from a skills perspective right so for

sure

um security is not only just

aspirational but it's also equipping and

holding that's right totally right so so

capability building and all that so you

are going to be pivoting here last I

think last time you don't need to Pivot

no

you kind of like same thing same old

things like that doesn't exist right

they're not does not exist anymore now

the pivoting is like so fast yeah

exactly I've had colleagues uh in in in

the tech space where they've had five

different bosses in one year the first

year first year of working in that tech

company they have five different bosses

and it wasn't because one boss left no

it was literally because team change

structure changed yeah right so it

wasn't even around attrition so so

that's just the pace and the the modern

day context and it's only gonna

accelerate it can give a person so

little stability to some kind of like

your Lighthouse True North you know it

just keeps changing yeah exactly and

that's going to be the norm yeah so a

career coach I like that a lot because

the career coach kind of helps them to

understand that I am it's almost like I

am on your side fighting your battle and

I want you to succeed whatever the kind

of fighter you are yeah right if you're

Archer I want you to be the best Archer

if you're experience man I want to be

your best PS manager if you're a

sportsman I want to be your best ones

man but it's the idea of even trying to

figure out which one are you that is

challenging yeah and the old generation

will probably not do that that much the

younger generation needs needs to almost

discover the strengths that's why

basically for us we are certified

coaches for strengths as well the idea

of like trying to figure out what is the

most important

um where are you built for greatness

that's right because if you're built for

greatness somewhere I want to be able to

pull it out and any boss that can pull

it out

as a boss there is great to be under

yeah but but coming so it's absolutely

true and again as a Gallup Clifton

strengths believer as well for sure

absolutely the case but uh you brought

up a good point which to me is a sort of

a subset under the career coach of what

it means to be a new school leader which

is this which is that previously people

would would you know have this is my

boss I'm with him and I'll follow him

all the way through but as we mentioned

right um that mall doesn't exist anymore

it doesn't exist anymore yeah so and

again this career coach is only with you

temporarily because the industry line

manager changes so therefore a good

leader in New School leadership you've

asked me is one that helps their their

staff anchor their career and anchor

everything on themselves meaning on on

the staff themselves yeah because me as

your land manager I'm very temporary I

can give you guidance for this period of

time I can prepare you for your Knicks

one or two roles that I can foresee but

I'm with you for a very short period of

time so I need you or I need to equip

you I need to inspire you yeah and

engage you so that everything around

your career is anchored on you you

because I will not be able to carry you

with me uh you know as your as your line

manager as a leader because you know I

really think we have good chemistry I

can't do that right so therefore as a

good leader you need to Anchor

everything on the staff that they are

they know how to develop themselves they

know how to think about their career

they know how to think about different

sectors that is where all the anger

needs to be because usually before it

was anchored on the boss I will follow

him or her wherever she goes right right

it doesn't exist anymore so that's a new

again a new development part of new

school

um so uh Dei first one yeah career coach

and the last one which again uh We've

passed the point of no return all line

managers or new school leaders need to

be

relatively proficient in workplace

well-being must be must be right

um there's love talk around well-being

all these four different things but to

me I'm very specific I'm very

intentional when I say workplace

well-being because if you if you're able

to effectively

um Drive yeah and and deliver and

facilitate it workplace well-being

that's the proverbial 80 of the

individual because they're the workplace

majority of their lives yeah right very

little time at home very little time uh

outside the office so if you're able to

really up the well-being and up the

engagement uh in the workplace that

person is generally going to be happy

across their lives so to me um being

clear having Clarity on that being

equipped on how to drive workplace

well-being is to me the that third

critical piece for for uh new school

leaders

I think this well-being thing is so

it's it's it's everybody's talking about

it to a point where it's like uh it's

almost like um that that you know that

song that you heard one time but after

you heard the 15 000 times you'd be like

okay so is that the same thing again and

again

and I don't think that leaders are very

much equipped when it comes to workplace

well-being right so if you were to think

about that then

it sounds like they need to go through a

lot of Learning and Development

themselves as a new leader I mean Dia is

really such a big thing yeah being a

career coach you can be oh my goodness

you can study 5 10 20 years to just be

like uh you know like okay a good career

coach yep that's right and now

well-being

where did he go to find all these things

man yeah it's it's besides them just

being a self-starter and there's like

I'm gonna just go read out my own and

all that but not everybody is going to

be good in all these things because most

of the time people get promoted because

they're just a good individual

contributor they suck at leadership but

they're good at what they do right yeah

a salesperson is great at sales but once

he becomes a sales manager he might he

might suck big time yeah so it is to

learn this whole idea of people

management and within people management

now we're just kind of like pulling it

up into like there's a career component

this inclusiveness component now there's

a well-being component where else do you

think that for new Young leader out

there where are they gonna find

resources or what are you going to do

yeah I mean it may sound a bit biased

but again this is our perspective or my

perspective right which is that Gala in

terms of the strengths right so once

you're clear on the strengths what

you're good at what you're really

interested in yeah uh how you're

naturally wired yeah that's the place to

look at in terms of well-being so if you

know how for example if someone uh one

of their their key wirings is I'm an

extremely uh competitive person yeah

right then again to address their

well-being in the workplace or even

outside the workplace is or is is

feeding or or connecting with that

competitive streak that they have yeah

so in terms of so hey in terms of

well-being what's really going to

connect with this person is that they

are constantly competing with themselves

yes or with or with peers for let's say

on on uh on on your weekly Health runs

yeah so as long as you continue right so

the Run itself is beneficial but what's

really making them feel good about

themselves what's really

adding to their well-being is that

they're actually beating their previous

time when they're beating their peers

exactly so where you're good at your

natural wiring connecting that to

well-being or engagement that's a an

easy place to start so to me you're

right the well-being topic sounds really

big really huge really let's say fluffy

right yeah but then again there's a very

tangible way to look at it when you're

clear on the individual strengths when

you're clear on the individual's wiring

so to me that's what I'm talking about

and that's why I said workplace

well-being which is really connected to

the individuals uh the individual

strengths when the individuals natural

wiring that's how you can really be very

Equitable to manage and engage them for

for workplace well-being I like that so

one of the analogies I do give when it

comes to this whole idea of innate

wiring and I'm big believer in any

wiring that we are kind of wired

differently like me and my brother are

totally different identical twins have

totally different personalities

um my six kids all have different

personalities you know that kind of

thing so yeah it's almost like the the

best analogy I could give when it comes

to this is that

um as a leader you're a zookeeper but

your main role of being a zookeeper is

that your animals Thrive your animals

feel that they are as close to home as

possible yeah but they're in an

artificial environment yeah so what you

would do the the

so this this comes to Equitable and all

that right so

bigger animals that need a lot of plays

will have more land like ostrich you

know like giraffes they need bigger

spaces then small to Mere cats like what

SIM what was the two of them in The Lion

King oh same uh

is this a small enclosure on the

left-hand side just opposite the

giraffes that's right the drafts are

huge uh then the lions are bigger behind

and all that so the idea of well-being

for an animal would be that we need to

know as a zookeeper let's say I need to

know what is the best environment where

you would thrive thrive mean that

there's no sickness but there's also

increase in population that means you

are you feel safe enough to populate

yeah and that's for Animals As a leader

you need to try to figure out that what

animal is each person that's right what

kind of traits do they have and when you

mention competitive

some people are very competitive then

I've seen that happen in like for

example financial advisors and insurance

when I coach them the people who are

extremely competitive always look at the

leaderboard yeah they're always looking

at the ball it's like am I there what's

my API this month right is it is it this

month am I top number one then for other

people you'll be like

I don't care about that yeah but another

person who is very very

um for example feeling and they just

want to do so well for their clients

because they feel for their clients like

oh my goodness if they don't get this

insurance the kids are going to suffer

and the parents are going to suffer

every week then they will do very well

but I don't give a [ __ ] about a

leaderboard exactly they give a [ __ ]

about that so it's it's almost the idea

that

to be a great leader

we need to start thinking that they are

no more animals that's all the same

whatever your size and all that you just

like manufacturing you know you are in

charge of putting this screw into that

that's right that's long time ago now

it's more of like we want them to thrive

and if they Thrive we hope like Jerome

bird park they're counting oh now it's

no more dream about now yeah Monday we

want to be able to have them I I think

that that's kind of like the Perfect

Analogy that you are free to go anytime

you want to go that's right but I'm

going to create an environment so great

that you won't go

right so let's yes but you're free fly

anytime exactly but come back you know

that uh there that as a zookeeper I care

I care about you I care about that you

thrive and personal for human beings

thriving means that not only that

they're happy but they're living out

what they're meant to do that's right

they're built for certain things and

you're bringing that out preach it yeah

totally totally absolutely yeah yeah so

to me

um exactly that right so so leaders need

to understand that they need to build

the specific environment yeah with for

their team for their team and again it's

not about it being fair but being

Equitable what does each individual my

team actually need which requires the

leader to actually know and give a damn

about what their individual team members

who they are and what they need right so

so uh to me big part of it because I

think we know we can already see if a

leader in the moving forward in the

future of work does not care does not

know yeah that leader is not going to be

effective at all right so that's why

it's me I'm quite clear that if any

leaders Future Future Future Leaders

right yeah want to thrive right in the

future of work if you're able to lock in

for yourself Dei yeah proficiency

um well-being right uh career coaching

yeah you're in a really good place so to

me uh that's that's the that's that's

sort of where I'm focusing on uh with my

own practice where I'm wanting to work

with leadership groups work with

organizations to really build in these

these if you ask me these new hard

requirements and new hard expectations

of leaders in the future of work

what is interesting then is that the

idea of

um

the idea of like them not wanting to

change is always going to be a very big

thing right so we see it probably and

sometimes it's really by just age groups

and demographics right yeah I do that

okay so it's difficult for some people

to change and all that and we'll see uh

them face a lot of challenges so I think

when we think about these leaders

um

in Psychology always think about this

idea that you can't change somebody you

can never change somebody right so the

point is then

how

the only hope that we have is that we

give them as much

understanding as much resources as

possible to help them understand that

that change is important right because

we can't change them yeah yeah so you

really bring them that paint that

picture that we are dealing with a very

different group of people compared to 30

years ago yeah that's right yeah and

then how I've sort of addressed or you

know encountered that challenge right

working with senior leadership groups

um one we're pretty data Rich context

now right so there's a lot of eight

people data HR data which is which is

helpful and convincing for some senior

leaders right so again pulling that data

this is what you know this is what the

actual sentiments are yeah use data

that's one yeah second it's also just

around again that's this is also a

cultural thing where senior leaders of

the past it really is about personal

relationship so therefore enlightened

leaders need to build that personal

relationship and then from there are

able to then influence the senior

leaders to towards being more

Progressive whatever that might be right

so a few different strategies and

approaches but uh you're right still

difficult

um but it's impossible to see somebody

we can we can lay it out for them right

but they must go and drink the water

yeah yeah so so we make it as enticing

and as palatable as possible yeah yeah

that's what I think that's what yeah

that's the challenge for for if you ask

me like all senior leaders and then the

the minus one group right those that are

that want to be Progressive those that

are hearing the ground hearing what's

coming right but then the added

challenge for this minus one group is to

be able to finally convince the senior

leadership group to to move forward to

drink the water per se

awesome yeah

all right so that's all the time we have

today thank you so much Brian for

insights uh anything else that you want

to share uh no this was super fun uh we

should do this please do this again

maybe I can set up my own Studio then I

can invite you and then you can come

over and like hey everyone welcome this

I have Jason on the show today and then

we can flip this around yeah we can flip

it different different Studios different

uh 90 something points something right

so um I think if you any of you have any

questions and all that I'll be happy to

be able to see I mean if this is

something that you guys want to see more

often all that write down comments and

all that if you feel that there's

questions about future of work about

work Leadership Learning and my passions

about my personal passions about passion

what you're built to do and performance

and all that do write down the comments

we can discuss about that uh and

hopefully our insights will be able to

give you a richer context of how you can

move forward and really succeed in your

own life with that thank you so much

thanks Jason thank you for your time

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