TRANSCRIPT

Becoming a Shoe Maker - Josh Leong | The CJH Podcast EP15

*Captions are taken directly from YouTube and may not be 100% accurate

[Music]

all right welcome everybody today we

have Josh long in the house hi Jason

thanks for having me thank you for being

here let me introduce Josh a bit uh Josh

Leong is a bespoke Shoemaker from

Singapore that focuses on shoe on

Footwear that is using both traditional

and modern shoe making techniques right

he has three bands under him Josh long

himself with his bespoke shoes uh he

founded alum in 2016 it's casual

Footwear yep we do sneakers sneakers

yeah okay interesting and then uh polola

which is ladies Footwear that's correct

okay so you I understand you moved to

Florence Italy to further hone your

craft by learning from the master uh

leather Craftsman uh you took the

opportunity to learn from shoe making uh

learn shoe making from an Italian master

Shoemaker named Angelo imperache here

it's a tough well that was difficult

right and then he also did your

apprenticeship over at Stefano bomber

Bama yeah so they're a very famous

bespoke Shoemaker in Florence in Italy

okay yeah okay okay and then he decided

okay after all that he's gonna try it

out so Josh in this day and age where

everybody is almost like um okay let's

just get a job uh forget about passion

passion has no place to to talk about

when it comes to the job we just want to

do work and then get paid and all that

uh it's interesting that

um Singaporean becomes um Master shoe

Craftsman would you call yourself uh

what do you call them well the the

correction I guess the correct

definition would be a Shoemaker

um I mean we are a Craftsman of of sorts

just that we specialize in shoes right

um specifically whenever we say

Shoemaker doesn't mean we only make

shoes that you can make you know Flats

you can make heels you can make

um slippers if we really wanted to but

it's just the generic name is just

Shoemaker but I think how I even got

into the whole journey was it really

started with a passion for the material

so I really liked leather okay when was

this this was Primary School Secondary

School when was this that you found like

who did you like happen to see a shoot

and it's like hey interesting yeah oh

what happened so I think there were two

passions two separate passions one

obviously was shoes

um this is something that I that I

started being passionate about even in

primary school so my mom used to call me

a centipede because um me alone you know

I would have more shoes than my entire

family combined okay um and sneakers

have always been my passion so it's even

as a kid I would save up all my pocket

money and instead of you know buying

Comics or buying video games I'd buy

shoes and then my mom kind of you know

felt that you know why do you have so

many pairs of shoes you only have one

pair of feet yeah um so that was one

passion and a separate passion that I

had was uh with leather as I mentioned

earlier

um it's one of the materials I think

where the more you use it the nicer it

becomes I think this is something that

really intrigued me about the material

because most things these days they're

not designed to last they're not built

to last in fact I think they're built

with the intention of breaking down

after six months you know a year so then

you buy more right away I won't mention

any names

yeah so I think it really really started

with a love affair with material so I

always knew eventually I would want to

do a business that that involved leather

right and also your passion for sneakers

started yes really young as a kid so

even in Primary School

um I remember going to Queensway I mean

right for those of you that that around

my age you know Queensway was the place

if you wanted to buy any kind of shoes

isn't it still now it is but I think

it's it's less um less popular these

days nowadays most people buy their

their kicks online yes you know okay

Keith and and the clothing and all that

kind of stuff but uh yeah essentially

when I was growing up Queensway was the

place to go right if you wanted the

latest Nikes or on Adidas or whatever

um so yeah I think combining my two

passions of shoes uh Footwear and and

leather that was really how I ended up

going to Italy in 2014

um I did kind of like a a course at a

vocational school right where they

basically teach traditional crafts so

not just shoemaking but there was back

making stained glass painting

um portrait painting so every

traditional craft uh and just shoemaking

was one of them exactly right so um

after I graduated from the school I

guess with the I guess the certificate

of sorts I literally took a pair of

shoes that I made there and I went you

know to to Stefan November and said

would you take me in and it just so

happened that my master Angelo happened

to be the master of Stefano when he was

first starting out oh so in a way it

kind of that was it gave me the

credibility and then the shoemakers that

stephanobama said okay sure come on in

and then that's how I I got my

apprenticeship and and all that kind of

stuff so

um yeah that was really the the

beginning of the whole journey as a

Shoemaker and then after spending more

than a year in Florence

um I actually ran out of money because

they don't pay us much as apprentices

yeah I knew that I needed to keep some

money so that when I came back to

Singapore if I wanted to set up a

business or start a business uh that

would be the seat capital in a way and

uh yeah so I came back in 20 end of 2015

right and that's where I set up Josh

Leong which is my baseball line when I

first started if I only did bespoke

shoes there were no kind of off the rack

options and it was only for men I think

along the way I always knew that at some

point I would return to my first love

which is sneakers sneakers yes and

that's where heirloom came about so that

the following year I I knew that okay

now that I've kind of got a feel for the

the industry in Singapore because I

think Singapore is quite a unique

um in terms of the industry when it

comes to Footwear I think if you look at

the typical especially for the for the

men on the weekends most of our men are

not even in shoes yeah they're either in

flip-flops or sandals or something more

casual so I always knew that yes you

know my training is in gestures because

what what we learned when we're bespoke

shoemaking apprentices is pure classic

dress shoes but I knew that at some

point um if I wanted to build a viable

business yeah I would have to explore

the more casual options so when I first

started heirloom we had driving loafers

as well as sneakers so I think that was

something which I would say more more

Singaporean men you know were accustomed

to to wearing and the following year in

20 end of 2016 start of 2017 that's when

I set up palola which is my ladies line

and uh interesting story behind that was

because I met my co-founder Jeremiah for

pelola and we shared the same Workshop

space

so he was doing leather bags so he used

to have a company called J Myers company

and they were doing what straps leather

accessories and we were sharing the same

Workshop back into check this was one of

my first workshops and I remember we

were having a bakute dinner at just just

nearby the workshop and he asked me can

I teach him how to make a pair of shoes

for his wife and he wanted to gift her a

pair for Christmas I said sure I mean he

was already a Craftsman of salt so he's

got good hands and you know teaching a

Craftsman is a lot easier than teaching

someone who has no craftsmanship

background at all yeah and it was during

that whole process that we realized hey

you know why should the men get all the

good stuff why not offer something for

the ladies as well and that's how palola

started because when we first started it

was all made to order so we didn't have

anything off the rack every single pair

was made to order meaning the customer

chose the color right customer chose the

design and obviously as two men what do

we know what women like or would buy in

terms of shoes right so uh in a way

that's it was it was one of those things

where there right time right place and

at that point in time there were no

other shoe brands out there offering me

to order Footwear at least for the

ladies most of the customized options

and stuff were really reserved for the

men so I think it comes more from the

the tailoring side like you notice you

know even in the corporate world most of

the men if they if they go out and make

a suit or they make shirts yeah it's all

tailored but for some reason the ladies

just prefer to buy off the rack maybe

because there's less options but uh when

we started palola we were the first

brand out there that really gave women

the option to customize their Footwear

so so that's how the whole journey

started right so clarification

um bespoke can make to order what's the

difference yes it's a great question um

I think it's a very common

um sort of mix up between the two terms

so when specifically for for shoe making

we talk about made to order it actually

means that we still use standard size

lasts yeah

um we might have them in different

widths but for example if you're a 36

you know in a standard width or you're

36 in a white fit right um what makes me

to order different from off the rack is

that you can mix and match for example

your left foot and your right foot in

different sizes if you need so we have

about probably 30 percent of my

customers wear their left foot one size

right foot's another size so you can

only get that done under made to order

okay and obviously you can then

customize the color of the leather you

can choose whatever leather you like

from our selection and then we'll

basically make that pair especially for

you now the difference between that and

bespoke is quite a big difference so for

bespoke we actually start by measuring

the customer's feet right so for example

you come in for a fitting you actually

sit you down I take out a measuring tape

and I make a series of measurements so

that I I almost translate your foot into

a series of numbers and then once I've

got that I then proceed to make a

bespoke pair of lasts so our last two

basically the mole that we make the shoe

upon okay and each bespoke customer has

his or her own bespoke glass so we don't

use that last to make anyone else's shoe

right

um and after obviously after we've made

the last we do a set of fitting shoes

which is basically made using the same

quality of leather as your final pair

just for the customer to test it out

make sure that there's no further

modifications needed and only after that

then we make the final pass so it's a

lot more work that goes involved but

yeah essentially that's the main

difference but I think a lot of people

kind of get the idea that bespoke just

means custom but actually no bespoke is

a lot more than just customizing the the

design or the color it really starts

with the measurements of of the foot

okay yeah cool I want to bring you back

um because before you actually went to

Florence and do that I kind of want to

know them the Wilderness phase so I

believe that there is a Wilderness phase

for people if they really want to find

their passion like I went to 32

different jobs in this business so

there's there's that Wilderness where we

like I try something first then maybe it

doesn't work I try something else and

all that a lot of times I see that

pattern of erratic

um just exploring what happened to you

when like okay so you know you know you

love of sneakers you kind of love

leather what what started that what

started a journey to like start to

search Okay does Florence have anything

and things like can I find something in

Singapore what happened between there

wow okay so going back to my childhood

then

um so I was born to a family that is

very

um I would say typical of Singaporean

family meaning you know parents both

were wage earners I've got two younger

siblings and kind of none of them were

business owners none of them were I

would say you know your classic risk

taker kind of personalities so I think

for me I was a bit of the black sheep in

the family in a way so I I went the

usual path you know Primary School

Secondary School JC and then I went to

to study in SMU for my degree and then

after graduating I guess that was really

the start of the whole Wilderness phase

where you're trying to figure out what

do I want to do for the rest of my life

right I started off in advertising sales

so I think when I studied in in SMU I

actually majored in marketing and

Communications okay so that was was the

feel that I guess I was strong at yeah I

wouldn't say I was necessarily

passionate about it but it was something

that I was good at I wasn't really good

at all the numbers in the finance side

of things but uh I was quite passionate

with advertising so I wanted to see if I

could carve out a career in advertising

um applied I remember at the time for a

position at ogilv to be a creative

naive right I mean fresh out of

University don't know anything and then

you know during the interview they they

kind of explained to me that if you're

trying to apply for a job as a creative

you need a portfolio obviously I had no

portfolio and they were like we can only

offer you a suit job which is kind of as

an account executive right and obviously

that wasn't kind of where I wanted to go

so I had to scrap that um I went into

sports advertising so I sold basically

media space at sports venues so like

golf courses uh gyms yawn clubs so it

wasn't really kind of um the definition

of advertising that I thought I would

end up in but it was a job right and I

think that's really kind of uh it's it's

still today it's been the only real job

I've had

um and I I did it it was a one-year

contract yeah

exactly on the one year mark I attended

my resume I said you know I'm done with

this I'm not doing it anymore uh and at

the time I was always coaching tennis

part-time so it was kind of I guess my

first Passion if you want to call it uh

was really for tennis so I started off

as a competitive tennis player um all

the way from from the age of seven all

the way up played tennis for my schools

and

um when I first graduated from JC and I

was doing my national service yeah um

the teacher in charge actually asked me

to go back to to coach the school team

so that's how I got started in tennis

coaching right and then I kind of did it

part time all the way through University

as well and after I finished my my one

year contract with the advertising sales

company I figured oh you know it pays

decent yeah um you get quite a lot of

freedom you get to do whatever you want

to do you can control how many hours a

day you coach so I decided to go into

tennis coaching so I did that for about

two or three years

um so full-time tennis coaching

full-time tennis coaching oh wow seven

almost seven days a week because the

thing about tennis coaching is that you

in a way you only work in the evenings

uh or on the weekends right because most

people they can only have their lessons

either very early in the morning very

after work yeah and on the weekend so

you're working seven days a week but

what I realized after doing it for a few

years was that it's only going to get

harder because it's a very physical

career like you're in the sun like and

we go to the sun yeah I was in the sun

six seven hours a day

um and you don't realize it but even

just standing there in the hot sun even

if you're not running around yeah um it

takes it sucks a lot of your energy out

and you feel exhausted at the end of the

day so I realized that you know at that

time I was about 27 26 27 and I figured

do I really want to be you know doing

this kind of physical uh career for that

many years yeah

um I figured okay if I'm gonna do

something different now is the time you

know before you get married before you

have any commitments if you're gonna

take a risk and take a leap this is this

is when you do it and I think that's

where I made the decision okay I'm gonna

look for something else and that's when

I kind of started asking myself again

you know okay what am I passionate about

what do I like yeah you know what can I

see myself doing day in day out for the

next 20 years 30 years right right and

that's where I Revisited the idea of

okay how do we combine you know uh

Leather So at the time I was as a hobby

I was just kind of making little leather

accessories for for friends and family

your little coin pouches card holders so

you're already doing that

so literally when I'm not coaching

tennis which is kind of during the

hottest times of the day so between 10

to 3 10 10 in the morning to three in

the afternoon there's nothing to do

right so kind of picked up a hobby of

leather crafting right but where did it

come from because so it was it was

equipment no yeah Supply so literally I

remember I I did a trip or I made a trip

to Tokyo and again Japan is one of these

places where craftsmanship is is so

popular and so in demand yeah um I

remember going to Tokyo hens and this is

before Tokyo hands was even in Singapore

and uh they sold a very small range of

like leather crafting tools and

materials and stuff so that was where I

got my first second hands right uh and

then brought it back to Singapore and

then kind of just off YouTube you know

just kind of self-taught and just

dabbling and so what was the first few

products you did so I made a little coin

pouch for my mom like a little zippered

coin pouch okay because um for those of

you that do leather craft you'll know

that making a zip is actually quite it's

not as easy as you would think it would

be so I was quite proud of that my mom

still uses it today until today so she

keeps all her coins in that little pouch

even though I mean when I look at it now

I'm like oh my God it's the ugliest

thing but I guess for her I mean a

mother's love right so uh yeah that was

the first sort of little

um so that's your first Devil with

leather

um craftsmanship yeah and I have nothing

to do with shoes yet no nothing to do

shoes and then uh when I went to Italy

to to learn from the school no no before

that so before that yeah you're doing

craft and then take me to the journey

that means when you're doing craft at

home during the hottest hours of the day

yeah you're doing that

um do you try to sell it do you try to

go online the usual Carousel it wasn't

good enough to sell to be honest and I

think that was a big part of the

decision why I felt I needed proper

training right um because no matter how

kind of many hours I would spend on

YouTube and stuff there's a lot of um

the tricks that you don't see even and I

bought even leather crafting books and

there's a lot of things which I only

realized later on when I was actually

doing a proper apprenticeship that you

there's a lot of these little

um nuggets of of wisdom of of skill that

you only learn from observing a true

Master at work right and that's uh

that's when I realized after kind of

dabbling it for for a while I was like

I'm not going anywhere I'm like yeah I

mean you can get a little bit better

like progressively better but if you

want to get like exponentially better

you need a proper Master to Mentor you

um there's only so far that you can go

by yourself so I think that's how I made

the decision to to start looking for a

mentor or looking for someone to give me

training so why not find in Singapore at

the time there was really no kind of

professional Craftsman right there

wasn't even a school or anything like

that that I that I found in Italy where

they focus purely on sort of traditional

okay handcrafted right um you know

almost vocational traits

um yeah so there wasn't anything in

nothing in that region this was like

2014 2015 right right

um Singapore to be honest at that point

was actually moving I think away from

manufacturing so they were moving more

towards like Services yeah especially

financial services and all that yeah and

um I mean we used to have interesting

story we used to have shoe factories in

Singapore

that produced shoes for the departmental

stores and stuff but they all closed

down kind of by the I think the late

1990s just because

um it wasn't viable labor costs were

going up because of production was going

up so you know because of that

um we didn't have any more Craftsmen

left in Singapore

um anyone you know who owned or had

anything to do with the shoe factory

just closed down the business so there

was no one teaching there were no

schools the only lessons that you could

get were maybe from from other Craftsmen

around but even then everyone was kind

of just self-taught in a way right so

there wasn't um there wasn't an

organizer no no it wasn't like these

people have done it for 20 30 years and

they are like the best of that that's in

classic hunting so you were doing all

these things and then you kind of like

okay I need to I need to learn from my

master yep I can't just keep going to

YouTube and all that I need this carry

on so then you searched and why search

Italy

uh why not everywhere else like maybe

even in Japan why not Japan so I think

if I had done the or if I had made the

journey today yeah it would have been

very different just because I think

Japan has really opened up and become a

Mecca of sorts especially for shoemaking

um but gotta remember this is you know

seven almost eight years ago I think

back then there were really good

Craftsmen in Japan but I think language

was always a big issue so unless you

spoke Japanese or you're willing to

learn Japanese right

um there wasn't anyone that was going to

be able to communicate or teach you okay

um but that being said today if I were

to advise someone to go you know on

their journey I would actually say Japan

is the first choice that then I would

recommend even though I'm Italian

trained right but of course back then so

even for Italy the let the the level of

English

um you know my master doesn't speak any

English at all so he was literally the

stereotypical eight-year-old Italian

Shoemaker like if you were just imagine

a stereotype of a Shoemaker White hair

glasses apron a bit of a belly a little

bit grumpy sometimes that's that's

Angelo exactly uh I mean I love I love

the men to bits because he he was almost

like a grandfather to me for the the

three um three four months that I was

learning from him right

um but essentially the only place that I

could find that had a proper kind of

course you know a proper syllabus uh was

was in Florence so I did explore other

places but I think I figured if you're

gonna go into a craft you know that

involves level you want to go to the I

guess the birthplace of high quality

leather leather goods yes and I figured

Italy would be a good place to start so

that's how I really ended up

shortlisting that place right in fact I

did a recce trip before I enrolled at

the school so I I went to to Italy just

to check out the school to make sure

it's legit right you don't want to go

all the way there pay all that money to

learn and then you realize it's just

some hole in the wall you know and the

the guy training you is not even a real

Shoemaker yeah

um but yeah so he used to kind of make

sure use for Gucci Prada in in the big

factories in Italy yeah so he's been in

the industry he was telling us that he's

been making shoes since he was 15. wow

so I mean and at the time when he was

teaching me he was 75 so he's been

making shoes for like 60 years and I

mean he's seen anything any shoe design

like he's seen all the trends he knows

how to make every kind of shoe you can

imagine he's like this huge wealth of of

shoe making information right and uh and

he's he's so generous and you know it's

one of those things where the amount

that you learn as an apprentice or as a

student it really depends on how

generous your Mentor or your master is

and again I only have nice words to say

about him because he never held anything

back he just taught everything that you

ask you as long as you're willing to

learn yeah he would be willing to teach

so okay yeah so you went there and you

mentioned just now that you were doing a

kind of like Craftsman crafts making

kind of um course where you learn about

many different things yeah uh was he the

uh was he the person teaching for the

shoe so he was the shoe module right I

also did a back making module so these

were the two modules that I took when I

was in in the school okay um so there

was a school you can uh yeah and

everything exactly right so so depending

on on what interests you have you can

select you know the different courses

for me it was back making and shoemaking

okay so I originally thought I would

like back making more I just took shoe

making because okay since I'm there

already also in a way it was by chance I

never thought I would fall in love with

shoemaking right okay okay because when

I first dabbled in leather craft in you

know back in Singapore as a hobby it

wasn't shoemaking it was making leather

leather goods right leather accessories

and uh when I went there and I started

learning shoemaking

within like the first two lessons I was

hoped and I know that that was you that

was it right that was it and that was

kind of that aha kind of moment it's

like right it's not that I don't like

like back making I still like it but I

think shoemaking is so different from

back making and I mean in terms of the

steps the techniques and the the

technical aspect of making a pair of

shoes it's so much more challenging than

the making of a bag I think when it

comes to making a bag uh don't get me

wrong it is a craft in itself yeah but I

think a lot of the skill when it comes

to bag making is in designing that

Unique Kind of silhouette understanding

you know how the bag looks when it's

carried and all that so it's a lot more

on the design yeah the actual assembly

of the bag is a bit more straightforward

generally yeah whereas for shoe making I

mean there's literally probably close to

100 different steps and if at any of

those steps you mess up you screw up the

whole shoe is ruined right and you can't

it's not like um let's say when you when

you deal with fabric let's say for

example when you sew you know on a on a

sewing machine a piece of paper written

if you sew it wrong you just unpick the

stitches right because the holes will

close back up on a piece of leather once

the needle goes in that's it right the

hole is there it's permanent but there's

also that idea of like um bags you don't

there's no feedback mechanism oh this is

not a comfortable bag

in a way I mean the bag's never going to

give you a blister right yeah it's never

going to bite you yeah then the yeah the

amount of uh Perfection that needs to be

done is so much higher than the bags

it's not just aesthetic yeah so I think

it's a comfort as well yeah so what

makes a good pair of shoes yeah it's not

just the design obviously um it's not

just the material but it's the whole

mechanics behind the shoe

um you know understanding how to make

the last yeah or even if you're if

you're gonna start for example off the

rack line like how do you select a last

that is going to be comfortable that's

going to fit and again you're never

going to be able to fit every single

customer every single pair of feet

that's why we have bespoke right right

um but of course you're trying your best

to fit as many you know people's feet

unique feet as possible just so that

your shoes will fit the majority of

people so I think that's that's really

the challenge when it comes to

shoemaking because it's not just a

matter of just okay come up with a

really nice looking pair of shoes but no

one's going to wear it no matter how

nice it is if the shoe is going to give

them blisters or it's going to hurt and

that's true that's true so I think

that's um again you know there's so many

different challenges when it comes to

the Footwear industry but uh yeah I I

loved it from I think the second lesson

I remember because the first lesson we

learned how to make an apron so

literally you go into the class everyone

is like super super cool right why

because you need to protect yourself

so the first thing that my master taught

us all to make I mean before you even

touch a pair of shoes is you first make

your apron and I'm still using that same

apron that I made on the first lesson

until today so that apron's gonna be

like what 2014 to now it's like eight

years old it's got holes it's worn out

it's got sweat stains and stuff you know

but I love it I'll never throw that

apron away because uh yeah it's the

first thing you really made and then

second lesson onwards that's when we

start kind of even just scraping the

surface of it and ironically the first

pair of shoes I ever made was a ladies

shoe even though I first started the

business I did men's shoes but the first

pair of shoes that they teach us how to

make is like a classic ladies uh

slingback if I remember yeah

share with me when you're in that second

lesson

um because the the last because what is

it I'm curious about is that the last

time we talked about shoes was when you

had sneakers when you're younger and you

didn't talk about that passion for shoes

or interest for shoes didn't come out at

all throughout your entire life the

leather came out but there wasn't shoes

but then when that Florence and that

second lesson something kind of like

accumulated to say that that this was it

share me what happened during that um

that second lesson yeah the second

lesson especially is like what clicked

in your mind is like hey I actually

really enjoy this

um it brought me memories of how I

really enjoy so many different kinds of

sneakers what happened in that lesson so

I think why and I and even I've asked

myself how come I didn't think of doing

shoes yeah as a I guess that's the first

option yeah

I never connected being or the

difference between the being the

consumer and I guess the business owner

or the Craftsman in a way so I always

enjoyed shoes as a consumer so meaning I

loved buying shoes I love shopping for

shoes I love wearing the shoes

um I think at that point I always just

viewed shoes more as my I guess my my

favorite thing to to consume my favorite

thing to buy and then it was only NATO

on when I delved into the craft of it so

in the second lesson when I was under

Angelo and I realized oh wow so like not

only are there 100 different steps of

shoemaking but each of the different

steps contributes to The Next Step so

what I mean by that is for example step

one if you don't do it perfectly step

two becomes more difficult which will

then make step three more difficult and

so on and so this is so exponentially

exactly so by the time you reach step 50

if you've messed up the first 49 steps

it's a nightmare you basically have a

Frankenstein shoe and that was kind of

like the code name that we had for for

all of us soon whenever we messed up a

shoe really bad we'd be like oh look

it's a Frankenstein shoe over there

because it just looks it doesn't look

like a shoe that's pretty easy right so

I think that was um that was something

which really appealed to me yeah because

it's kind of one of those things where

you can't just

um fast forward to the end and just do

the last step properly and kind of hope

that it masks all the mistakes that you

made earlier on it forces you to really

in a way be in the moment so each single

step that you take you have to do it to

the best of your abilities because you

know that it's going to then affect the

subsequent steps I think that was really

the when I realized what was going on

and and I realized this very early on

because so there's different students

right and different students have a

different way of learning so some of my

classmates

um and I hope none of them are watching

this but anyway I'm not going to mention

names so some of them actually had a

very different approach so they were

kind of learning shoemaking but they

were always in a hurry to see the

finished product right so they were

always looking at step hundred right

they want to see what the final pair of

shoes looks like and because of that

they kind of neglect all the earliest or

they rush through the earlier steps so

just to share the I was always the last

in my classes I was the slowest I was

the one that was always having to redo

everything because I'm a bit of a

perfectionist by Nature right because of

that every time I meet us even the

smallest mistake I would throw it away

and restart it again and even my master

used to look at me and be like Josh what

why are you still on step one or step

two everyone's on like step ten right

and you're still redoing and redoing and

redoing right and it was just something

which I quickly realized that if you

don't do these earlier steps you know

well it's gonna make the whole shoe a

nightmare to make and uh and that's what

happened to a lot of my classmates so a

lot of my classmates after learning they

didn't pursue careers in shoe making

they went back to what they were doing

before it was like a hobby like yeah it

was kind of like a sabbatical you know

in a way and they they just didn't

either they couldn't stand it because

you know they weren't patient enough or

whatever

um but yeah I think that the nature of

shoemaking and and how each step

contributes to the next was the thing

that really

um captivated me about the whole craft

and again it's it's something which is

very in line with my personality because

whatever I do I don't know it's

something maybe it's a form of OCD in a

way right but I have to do it like as

perfectly as I can if not I just feel

really uncomfortable so yeah all right

so share with me then after that when

you uh well it was under um Angelo yep

then what next after that after three

months you took a shoe un and then ask

for apprenticeship so literally as as I

mean it's almost like you write a

storybook right so I went to see uh

Tomaso Tomaso's the CEO of Stefano Bama

so Stefano Bama he passed away by the

time I I went to to his his shop on his

bespoke Studio to to ask for an

apprenticeship

um but the CEO was there so he actually

bought over the brand and I showed him

you know a pair of shoes that I made and

obviously I told him that I was taught

by by Angelo and I think it wasn't the

shoe that got me the apprenticeship it

was Angelo who or knowing that I was

taught by Angelo that actually

um allowed me to I guess get a foot in

okay um because I entered the program a

lot later than the other apprentices the

other apprentices had started three

months before that so they kind of you

know were already by the time I joined

they had already done all the basics and

stuff with with the bespoke shoe makers

also there was a program actual program

it's like an apprenticeship program you

know so it's like a one year two year uh

it depends how long you want to stay so

minimum you can stay six months um you

can extend further you know obviously

depending on your financial uh you know

resources yeah and obviously also

depending on your skill so you don't get

offered to stay unless you're you know

one of the better ones okay if not a lot

of them after maybe six months they

might just leave and right either go

back to their previous job so you know

go and find another apprenticeship right

um but yeah literally I took uh and I

still remember the pair that I made

because it was the first pair that I

made for someone that was I guess in a

way wearable so it was actually a pair

that I made for my dad

uh interesting story behind that was

because I think so my parents are both

doctors again like I said very

stereotypical uh conservative non-risk

taker kind of people right and my dad I

think when I first told him I was gonna

go to Italy and learn to be a Shoemaker

he almost fainted because imagine for

him I mean he kind of the last career he

would ever think is his eldest son would

would choose right I think for parents

like especially Singapore they're uh

white collar and the blue color no it's

kind of like you know it's like you work

with your hands or you work with your

mind you know the kind of thing so

sometimes parents would be like hey

actually if you can maybe because you

got a University degree and all that why

don't you go for something that's a

little bit more cushy a little bit more

office uh office aircon kind of thing

rather than like work with your hands

yeah right and I think in in our parents

Generation

Um I think they always get confused

between Shoemaker and cobbler yeah

it's very common so obviously cobbler

deals with used shoes mostly because

you're repairing right whereas for

shoemakers generally we work with with

new shoes and we're making them a brand

new shoe so you know again they they

kind of had this idea that I was going

to be you know just my aspiration in

life was to just be a cobbler nothing

wrong with it it's just that I think

they they probably wanted me to have a

like you said an easier life you know

and not to have to kind of resort to

using my hands yeah to to make a living

for myself

um so when he kind of first when I first

told him he was I guess shocked in a way

didn't quite believe that maybe he just

thought I was going there for a holiday

just a phase in your life yeah one of

those things

Josh go for it yeah and if you come back

crying and be like no no I'll go and

I'll do it I'll go back to advertising

join an office job you know just normal

corporate job right yeah so I knew that

when I came back if I wanted to kind of

prove to him that I was gonna make

something of this he would be the first

um I guess naysayer that I would have to

to convince instead you know I know what

I'm doing so he was the first person I

intentionally wanted to make a pair of

shoes and he still wears that pad till

today

um you know it's it's and and that was

the same pair that I brought to Stefan

November to kind of ask you know is it

good enough will you take me in as an

apprentice

yeah it's your portfolio portfolio yes

in a wing right because you don't care

you know what's your educational

background no because what can you make

with your hands how good are your hands

yeah

um but yeah that was that was an

interesting kind of uh tidbit that I

thought I'd share just because when I

look back on the whole journey I think

these are the things that I remember

because

um having that ecosystem or that support

system really allowed me to then I guess

in a way pursue my passion right because

I think if I didn't have parents that

that would even entertain you know

something as crazy as going to Italy and

learning to be a Shoemaker I probably

wouldn't have ended up there and you

know just be just in a in a typical

corporate job like 99 of my peers I

guess yeah yeah so also once you

finished everything you came back to

Singapore yep uh when was the time when

you felt that okay I want to really set

up something and probably when you're

when you first started out you probably

won't go and get an office and do

everything right you just buy as much

leather as you need at home and try to

do it was that what happened so

literally my workshop uh for the first

almost one year when I came back was in

my living room in my house and you've

been to my house yeah so literally I set

up my sewing machine I set up my

workstation kind of you know in the

middle of my mom's living room

she hated it she was like when are you

gonna get your leather and your tools

out of my living because for one year oh

my God nobody could use the living room

because it was just a mess right all my

stuff was all over the place but again

like you said I wasn't ready to even

start selling shoes so literally the

first even after making that first pair

for my dad yeah

um the first few commissions that I that

I did it was just for friends and family

I just basically charged them the cost

of materials that's all like I wasn't

even making any money on the pets

because I knew that

um I needed more experience so you need

to get as many shoes under your belt as

you can and that's something as a

Craftsman there's no amount of theory or

or you know learning can replace actual

making yeah and uh so I knew that I

needed customers right and the best way

to get a customer to say hey I'm gonna

make you a pair of shoes it's gonna cost

you nothing basically you just pay me

for the leather yeah and that's it you

know you don't have to pay me for my

time and all that I'll make you a free

pair of shoes and that's how I started I

remember a second pair I made was for a

very good friend of mine who was getting

married so I made his his wedding shoes

Okay uh then I made another couple of

pairs for for other close friends and

all that and it was only after I think I

made probably close to the first

18 or 19 pairs wow and then I was like

okay now okay I think we can start

taking orders and that was kind of when

I moved out my mom's living room I gave

her her living room back yeah and I

rented my first I guess Workshop in a

way so it was a very old walk-up

apartment I remember at uh near Newton

called gilstead Mansion I don't even

know it's still there now but it was a

ground floor walk-up apartment

um and it was it was a two bedroom

apartment so I just you know the living

room was where I saw my my customers one

of the bedrooms was basically where I

would make the shoes the other bedrooms

where I stored all the leather and all

that right so that was the setup in a

way and it was a one-man show there was

nobody else helping me that was

those are tough times also when you when

you rented that place and all that that

was a big uh big boat a big move yeah

yeah because did you already have many

orders coming in and that's why you

rented or no that you ran first and okay

I hope this works out it was really one

of those like just take a leap okay uh

you know you put the deposit down and

that's when [ __ ] gets real right

literally it's real man uh and it's

scary man because you're you're doing

something and you gotta remember this

was 2015 back in 2015 there were no

bespoke like the idea of a bespoke

Shoemaker it's not even a career that

people even heard of yeah

um and same thing from a consumer point

of view like customers 99 of customers

you know especially in Singapore yeah

didn't even know that the option for

bespoke shoes existed so it wasn't like

something which oh yeah you know like I

know 10 other bespoke shoemakers I was

like the only one only crazy guy you

know doing such a niche product right so

it was uh it was a really scary time and

I think I was fortunate in way that the

fact that not many people did it also

kind of added to the novelty yes so it

was it was quite easy to get picked up

by the media and stuff when they found

out that oh there's this crazy Singapore

guy yeah being a Shoemaker and stuff you

know let's let's give him some press

coverage so I think that was because it

helps you that helps a lot so again the

earlier I mean shout out to those

earlier journalists from from all the

different media Publications that

featured me yes that were willing to

kind of I guess take a leap or you know

give us an interesting story it was

novel it was novel right so it's one of

those things where you don't hear about

it every day and I think uh that kind of

built my name and built the brand and

all that kind of stuff so what you you

set up a website and this um you had

friends who refer friends yeah so I

think at the start it was really all by

referrals yes okay so it's a it's it's

and it's a really painful kind of um way

to grow a business right because it's

really slow yes

um you start and obviously social media

helped a lot yeah but again gotta

remember this was pre-tick-tock you know

free video and stuff we were in the age

of images and it wasn't the same trying

to kind of I guess Market a bespoke shoe

brand yeah as it would be today like

today it's so much different like how I

would if I were to set up the whole

thing again how I would Market the brand

would be so different than how it it was

seven eight years ago but of course

social media helped uh referrals helped

you know the question yeah the Press

coverage helped me up a ton yeah

um but you start to get others gradually

right

um but even then it was you get a lot

more surprise customers when they find

out the price and they find out how long

it takes

um so for every 10 inquiries you might

get one that comes down to make an

appointment or sometimes even less than

that right and then you know whether or

not they actually buy a pairs it's a

totally different story right so yeah

there was a lot of educating in a way

yeah

um because the market was it was such a

new product that the market wasn't quite

uh they never even heard of of this

concept before so yeah okay then from

there if you fast forward then

um to now now you're kind of like

wearing a little bit of head of a

business owner right not only just that

Craftsman

so what what what was that transition to

say that okay I'm going to set up

different things now because the more

you set up things the more you have less

time with your craft

and if your passion was that crap

unfortunately yes what made you want to

do that then so I think when I realized

that I was sort of setting up the

business this is for the bespoke side so

when I was setting up my bespoke brand I

realized that I didn't want to fall into

the same trap that I was in previously

with uh tennis coaching yeah where um

you're essentially just earning an

hourly wage right as a tennis coach oh

yes where you can't really scale the

business the only way to scale a

business is to kind of open an academy

hire more tennis coaches yeah similarly

as a bespoke Shoemaker like I only make

two pairs of shoes a month so an entire

year you're looking at 24 25 pairs yeah

tops and no matter how many orders I get

even if I get 100 orders a year it just

means my wait list becomes four years

that's all it doesn't mean I make 100

pairs that year so I think I knew very

quickly that if I wanted to scale the

business I would need to have some um

product lines or some other brands that

were more scalable I.E I wasn't the one

involved in the the crafting as much

so I think that's where heirloom came

around so for heirloom again I I always

knew I wanted to come back to sneakers

yeah I think that was something which I

promised myself I would I would come

back to it my first love uh and I knew

that I wanted to do something a bit

different so obviously I can't compete

with the Nikes of the world the Adidas

of the world because they're huge Brands

right

um and similarly I knew that I didn't

want to do an off-the-rack uh dress shoe

brand more because I felt in Singapore

most of the the target audience they're

not really wearing dress shoes most of

us are more casual you're wearing either

loafers or sneakers these days so I

wanted to kind of do something in

between so I kind of call I coined the

term dress sneaker so it's kind of like

a very classic style sleeker using dress

shoe leather the same leather that we

can use for bespoke dress shoes

um but obviously with a much more casual

aesthetic so I think that's kind of

where I realized okay I want to use this

line to then scale so I went to find the

factory in Italy that was able to

produce it to the Quality that I wanted

right um and then I started that brand

and then when it came to palola palola

again was uh something that I co-founded

with Jeremiah so it was something and

Jeremiah Was facing very similar

problems to me because he was doing

bespoke bags and leather goods and again

he couldn't scale as well right so he

found himself having to sometimes resort

to taking corporate orders just to keep

you know food on the table literally and

it's tough way to to kind of grow a

business yes so we figured let's let's

try and see how do we use our skill set

how do we use our passion and then grow

something that's scalable and um so how

we started palola was we started by

finding the production first so instead

of thinking about the product

um and kind of Designing a product we

actually went about it the other way

around so we let's go and find a

production and we couldn't find a

factory that would produce the shoes the

way we wanted it because we don't forget

we were doing only made to order and no

Factory you know out there is gonna Just

Produce one pair for you because they're

not gonna do it so we had to buy our own

Factory so that's literally really how

we started palola we bought a factory in

in JB that's where we the factory is

still today

um and literally I would drive across

the causeway you know four or five times

a week to train the shoemakers there so

we started with just one Shoemaker and

it was myself and Jeremiah so the three

of us would sit there to 2 A.M in the

morning in in our little Factory in JB

uh you know producing every single pair

that we made but I knew that eventually

if I can train more shoemakers yes we

would be able to scale so now over there

we've we have a whole team of shoemakers

that all make shoes the same way that I

was taught

um and that has allowed me to then focus

on I guess scaling the business

um it but you're absolutely right in the

sense that it does take me away from the

craft and the craft was what I fell in

love with in the first place right and I

think that's why I made a very

deliberate decision to keep Josh Leong

as my bespoke line so I I will hopefully

Never Say Never but as of this point you

know I'm only gonna be offering bespoke

shoes under Georgetown

even if it means I only do two pairs a

month that's fine because then at least

it gives me an outlet for me to then

make you know shoes and keep in touch

with the craft while heirloom and palola

then allow me to then scale you know my

businesses yeah that essentially puts

food on my table because to be very

Frank in my bespoke line yeah it doesn't

make money it's more of something that I

do purely out of passion but my Revenue

generating businesses are illuminous

right right yeah

it's interesting because whenever we in

business we see that that bottleneck you

can either skill in terms of quantity

you know then you can also scale in

terms of price so

um if I think in the just wearing that

business hat uh for a while

um why not increase that price to a

point where

that makes sense to you let me for

example if it's now like 9000 then why

not twenty thousand does it or is it so

ridiculous or what is it I think it's a

combination of the appetite of the

market right meaning what is your Market

um willing to pay or what do they Define

as I guess acceptable like do they think

that your product is worth that price

okay I think the biggest challenge is

that because

um it's such a new product such a niche

product and and not many people have

been exposed to bespoke shoemaking and

the prices in general so because of that

I think when a lot of people find out

the price of the shoes you know even at

my current pricing they already find

that it's it's a price that they would

never in the million years dream of

paying for a pair of shoes right okay so

I think that's one thing

um the other aspect also is in terms of

time so even if you up the price or

whatever you know the amount of time

that it takes to make that pair of shoes

it stays the same because you can't

Quicken it you know you can't shorten

that amount of time anymore because then

you compromise the quality of the

product right so I think because of that

um I was quite deliberate in the sense

to rather than raise the price

um to a point where either the market

doesn't accept it or you know um and

they might affect you know the the

business you reduce the number of

customers you have I prefer to look at

other ways to scale you know that that

were I guess that were more doable than

um raising their prices to a

astronomical height I guess okay okay

okay I I do believe that um sometimes

when it comes to Passion people have a

very vague idea or very fluffy idea or

passion so I actually Define passion to

three parts right one part is interest

where you can talk about it

um forever the other one is strengths

where you have a knack for it and then

the other one is values just want to

find out from you for your interest you

you had interest in sneakers and leather

were there any other interests that you

could have explored and then it could

have been been something yeah what other

interests do you have besides these two

so I think growing up oh yeah in tennis

I was always exactly I was always a

sports person I love tennis

um another sport that I love but I don't

play so much now is golf so um

tennis wasn't I guess it was

at one point a career for me I mean I

was coaching tennis full time for at

least three four years right um but

again it was one of those things where

the idea of opening a tennis academy

which is the scalable yes um

all the trainers it wasn't appealing to

me okay because it was in a way you take

yourself off the court and all you're

doing is managing a bunch of coaches for

business you're managing the business

and I think that was something that I

wasn't passionate about right so for you

somehow rather you need to be in the

business unfortunately and again

um it's a double-edged story it is you

know they always tell you that as the

business girls you're gonna take your

weight you take yourself away from the

product stop flipping the burgers yeah

but I love flipping the damn book you

know what I mean that's the yeah that's

the thing so yeah but I have to

consciously sometimes remind myself that

yeah I'm not responsible not just for

myself but I've got my staff I've got

business partners I've got shareholders

too that I'm accountable to okay and as

much as I would love to just not have

anyone talk to me and just you know sit

in my workshop and make shoes all day

yeah there are days sometimes I don't

even touch shoes yeah um you know I have

to focus on the other parts of the

business and stuff so what are the

interests besides that Tennis Center uh

tennis golf uh I'm an avid poker player

I love uh playing poker uh more because

I think it's it's one of those things

where not so much the gambling aspect so

like when I go into a casino I don't

play anything else right like literally

I just go in and the only game I would

play is poker or because I like the idea

of kind of you know um I guess pitting

your wits against someone else yeah and

obviously the money is is the side

aspect I don't play poker for the money

but it's more of just being able to I

guess do battle so I'm relatively killer

I'm quite competitive by nature and it's

one of those things where

um I've always loved games right any

kind of game where there's a sport uh

card game you know like like poker

whatever it's one of generally a very

competitive generous so even for

friendly games you are all in well I

mean it's a friendly game it's you know

if it's a social game to be honest of

course you know there for a different

aspect but if let's say you're playing a

casino where you don't know any of these

guys

yeah I'm gonna not leave any money on

the table or if I can right so that's

kind of uh it's in my nature I guess but

uh yeah I think poker is one of those

things where you it teaches you a lot

about life as well kind of how do you

maintain your cool how do you not get

emotional when you lose a big part

um how do you kind of out level your

opponent with just your mind right

that's essentially it yeah and uh yeah

there's a lot of things that you can

learn from poker that you can apply to

your real life as well

um especially in the business World

which is something which I had to learn

the hard way right because I started off

as a Craftsman yes and to then

transition into the business world and

as the business grows you know wearing

the business owners had yeah

um hasn't always been easy yeah totally

different skill sets totally different

and like I like flipping the burger you

know so okay so you have interest and of

all the interests there was tennis uh

how about the marketing and advertising

was it I think

um I apply I wouldn't say it was

interest as much as it was something

that I was naturally good at okay so

when I was in business school so I did

business business management in SMU and

obviously business management is a very

generic kind of degree

they run you through the whole gamut of

101s right you study everything from

business law to basic accounting to

basic economics and obviously you've got

marketing 101 Communications 101

um and I found that I naturally

gravitated towards the marketing

Communications module just because I

just tended to do better in those

modules so that was what pulled up my

GPA at the end of the day so I I guess

in a way I I made the mistake of I guess

considering a career just because I was

good at something and not because I was

really interested in it and I think

that's probably why I ended up not

lasting more than a year in the industry

so the very funny thing about what you

just said was that a lot of people uh

out there they they kind of mix this

whole idea of strengths to things that

they're good at the funny thing is that

when I do have actually have a quadrant

that I I share and I teach is that you

have competency high and low competency

but you also have this thing called

Energy and they have to match up either

whether it is energizing to you or

draining to you so there are places in

our life where we are competent but we

are doing your energy sucks their life

out of you like holding on to like damn

Kryptonite but you're good at it yeah so

we call that that quadrant Hollow

Endeavor right the other questions where

you're highly competent and you're fully

energized that means like wow three

hours just went by and then it doesn't

feel like it doesn't feel like work it

feels a little bit by play and all that

um and we call that Primal greatness so

there's a big difference but most people

don't see it that way because if I'm

your boss you're good at something guess

what I think you like it and guess what

I'll give you more so and that just is a

never-ending yeah kind of spiral right

which is scary then you could get higher

and higher a bigger and bigger part of

your portfolio is the things that is

your Hollow Endeavor which is your

competent in by just but you hate the

living daylight yeah so you would say

that for marketing and advertising there

was very much there yeah okay I think it

was one of those things I was good at it

you know I those were the the A's that I

got when I was in in University right

and because of that I kind of I guess

figured okay since I'm doing decent it

should be that partner you know what do

you know when you're like 23 24. I was a

kid almost in there okay okay that's

right so but uh yeah I think that's

that's why you know I later on I

realized that hey you can't just be good

at it and choose your career based on

that yeah but if not you know it because

most of us are going to be working the

majority of Our Lives I mean and you

want to make sure whatever you're doing

day in day out yeah uh it's something

which you know at least you're

interested in if not passionate about

yeah so the funny thing about that also

is that that because human beings are so

complex and so diverse there are some

people who are okay with a job being a

job and they just have hobbies on a

Saturday and Sunday and they're okay

with them but there are some individuals

that can do that yeah so maybe like you

you can't I can't right it has to align

it has to kind of overlap that uh I want

to do it again

I want to do something interesting but

yeah I want to do something interesting

challenging but also it pays me as well

yeah so there are also a few group of

people who are like that and and I've

seen that

um coaching so many different people

some people are just okay with that like

our parents our grandparents yeah they

don't care about self-fulfillment they

don't get yourself actually you might

enjoy everything yeah it's just

sustenance and that's it and that's it

you do your duty it's like NSA you do

your duty come back and that's it your

obligation to your family after 7 PM is

your life is your life and that's okay

for I I do feel that a lot of people and

that's fine yeah but there's a small

group of people who can't take it yeah

and then they go and try ridiculous

things and then hopefully something

sticks yeah right so the second part of

passion is interesting is the strengths

part where you have a natural ability to

to kind of like see things or do things

where do you think your strengths are

when it comes to this so I think I mean

obviously aside from marketing and

Communications which were I guess my my

strengths or areas that I was strong in

school

um what I realized is that along the way

along this whole journey from going from

a Craftsman to becoming a business owner

I've learned to kind of balance out the

two different heads and specifically

with regards to being for example

detail-oriented yeah versus big picture

so obviously detailed oriented referring

more to the Craftsman hat yeah where

you're focusing on on the minute little

details and getting every detail as

perfect as you can right and that's

that's what makes a perfect shoe

um versus looking at it as a business

owner where you can't just always get

caught up on the details yeah and I

think a lot of times I learned about

this the hard way you know when I first

sort of um I remember when I first hired

my first staff

um you know I would often kind of and

again sorry to you know who you are uh I

would Michael managed the hell out of

them which I realize now it's the most

horrible way to be a boss like

micromanaging no nobody likes a micro

managing Moss but that's because that

was in my nature right and over time and

in a lot of kind of uh sort of like with

self-reflection after I realized that

hey you know you have to wear different

hats at different times and balance out

you know there's a time to be big

picture and there's also time to be

nitty-gritty details and I think I would

like to think that now that I'm you know

seven eight years into the journey I've

been able to kind of manage that that

right whole aspect so I think that's

probably one of my strengths which then

has allowed me to continue to be a

Craftsman but at the same time you know

grow a successful business or businesses

because if you can't juggle those two

heads properly you're only going to be

good at either or and you know then you

would probably need to hire or work you

know find a partner that can compliment

you in a way so I think um that's uh I

would say my biggest strength I do feel

from this conversation that um what what

is like more and more apparent for me is

that that the affection part the the

meticulous part the attention to details

is a strength that you had since it is

is that yeah it's the idea that I want

to see that one uh that threat to be

exactly the same for example I don't

know that measurement yes as the other

one yeah and that helped you to kind of

like do well in shoemaking yeah right

and and that is as that is that

attention to small details that you kind

of like it comes naturally for you so I

think the reason why I don't bring it up

necessarily only as a strength because I

see it as a double-edged sword it is yes

because for example it's fine when I'm

doing when I'm making a pair of shoes to

be anal and you know perfectionist which

is you yourself my natural self right

but when I'm for example doing accounts

yeah or if I'm doing something which you

know uh it doesn't necessarily grow the

business but it's more like a it's one

of those compliance things and then like

I insist on the formatting of my Excel

sheet being perfect which takes you know

an extra two hours and like I could have

used it two hours do something else in

the business right that's so that's when

I see it as also something which kind of

hinders me yes that is true when I do uh

coaching for strengths as well every

strength you have but so the interesting

thing in life is that the weaknesses the

people that the things that people

complain about you or me are the things

are the very strengths that we have used

unwisely yes so your attention to detail

plays wrong is great yeah so wrong place

a right thing but maybe wrong time that

kind of thing so the last thing

interesting is that this whole idea of

values is part of

um my definition of passion and I have a

value of for example adventure and

that's why I want to do a lot of

different things right what is your

value that and the value is something

that you live out

um almost like this helps me to live out

my value what would that be for you so I

think if I had to look at it from a

value point of view in terms of what

motivates me what gets me on a bit yeah

every day right I would say I have two

values one obviously I've already

brought up um earlier in the

conversation which is that whole idea of

perfectionism but more in the in the

sense of in terms of when I deliver

something to a client or or to a

business partner or to to you know a

brand that we happen to be collaborating

with

um you know making sure that I do it to

the best of my ability and sparing no

expense right meaning there's no

compromise and this is something which

um if any of my customers you know have

bought shoes from any of my Brands they

will know that I don't compromise right

like it's something which

um has helped me to grow to where I am

it's also what has given me uh I would

like to think a positive reputation in

the industry right just because I would

rather lose money on that pair yeah but

deliver it to the standards that I

promise you then just kind of give you a

half-assed job and right and then you

know the shoe is not at the right

standard okay so I think that level of

perfectionism I would say is something

that I strive to achieve every single

day and it's not just in the craft but

every aspect of the business you know of

course without letting it affect the the

the growth of the business I try to do

my best in every function of the

business as much as I can right

um my other value I would say would be

TRANSCRIPT

COACH JASON HO