TRANSCRIPT

Unveiling Insider HR Secrets - Neil Yang | The CJH Podcast EP18

*Captions are taken directly from YouTube and may not be 100% accurate

[Music]

try all right so welcome everybody to

another podcast and today we have Neil

Young here Neil thank you for being here

thanks for having me okay A little bit

of introduction for everybody at home

what do you do and what kind of like

things have you been doing sure hi

everybody uh my name is Neil Yang um I

have worked in HR for a significant part

of my career uh my most recent role was

with grab where I headed up the groups

uh campus Recruitment and early careers

uh programs so used to be the global hit

yeah for for for all the uh the 12

countries that was in okay um prior to

that I used to work in finance in a

regional uh function for Barley's Bank

where I hired for the markets early

career space and then I was a program

manager and recruiter for uh the cross

franchise M program at City uh prior to

that and uh yeah so that's that's that's

been a huge um engaging Journey that

I've been on and also allow me to see

you a little bit more often and enjoy

the conversations that we always have

yeah yeah we usually do uh career fast

for our Elma MAA right so Neil um

interesting that your career spent all

the way from interviewing people to now

like also like uh teaching people

workshops and all that and but it's all

in the early career space um my question

and what I'm curious about is that if

somebody let's say if somebody is going

for uh interviews right that means they

finished their career uh finished their

education they're going for interviews

um in your experience what really stands

out yeah I I think it's it's a couple of

things right um when we interview people

we're obviously not doing it because hey

we want to have a conversation have

coffee on the company and have a chat

right it's not it's not just a CH chat

right I think it's really about trying

to figure out whether the person that we

see in front of us when we're

interviewing we can see them in the role

that we want to hire them to right so I

think there's a couple of aspects there

um to an extent when we bring people in

for an interview we assume that you know

they're bright that they are fairly

familiar with with things but I think

what really makes a difference is in two

ways right and broadly Under the

Umbrella of just general awareness and

knowledge so firstly they're aware of

themselves right so they know their

strengths they know what they should be

working on and they're able to share

about how they are working on it and in

a way you know they're able to say like

hey you know I have these strengths I

have these weaknesses but as a package I

am the right fit for the job that you

are are hiring for at the moment on the

other hand there's also knowing the

company and sort of generally the

industry and the kind of things that

happen in the job that you're applying

for so you know if you're able to speak

sort of the lingual right you understand

certain terms um you go online you read

the news you see that in Tech

everybody's talking about generative AI

cat GPT everybody's favorite thing to

talk about at the moment right yeah and

you able to I suppose have the second

level beyond the clickbaity headline of

chat GPT is going to take everybody's

jobs right to be able to articulate what

you bring almost that goes beyond what

it what LGBT can do for example right um

and you know I think when people speak

to candidates hiring managers talk to uh

young person and they find like hey

actually this is conversation that I

might have when I have with my team then

we're far more likely to say yeah I

think this person could be the right fit

now to be able to do that in an

interview and maybe I'm jumping a little

bit ahead but um it's really important

that you spend time sort of cultivating

that understanding both of yourself as

well as of the subject matter the

industry the company the team that

you're applying too right right so so I

got a question for this when you uh see

somebody in there and you ask them about

the company and the interview it's like

hey um what some of the questions you

ask them to see whether they have done

their research on the company and the

interview and the industry I think it's

it's it's not necessarily that we will

ask a question right it's not like we

say like hey tell me what you read about

us in the news but it may be that hey

we'll say like we'll be talking about

maybe a challenge that they faced in the

past right and maybe the question is

about when you had to learn a skill very

quickly and then it maybe is up to the

candidate to sort of bring in like hey

you know one of the other things I've

had to learn recently is data analytics

right because even though I'm applying

to a non-technical job um I see that the

future is data the ability to tell

stories in a quantitative way is really

really important and you know if you're

on if if the the hiring team is living

this reality every day and they're like

hey this guy knows or this this lady

knows what he or she is talking about

and the fact that he or she is learning

some of that stuff it almost like look

smell and taste like the kind of person

that we want to be right on on our desk

okay so so it's almost like uh whatever

the opportunities that pose to you and

they ask a question you want to be able

to quickly Point them to relevance of

what you've been doing either studying

something learning something new or

being very enthusiastic about this

industry and the company or whatever the

company is doing so you're trying of

it's almost like you're sneakily trying

to weave in that hey I'm the guy I do

this uh I do this most of the time I've

been researching on that and all that

right there something along the line and

and unfortunately this is like almost a

it's almost a hiding in plain sight kind

of tip right that you know unfortunately

many young people when when they

interview they're like hey tell me about

this and you talk about you know it's

great thing that you've done you but

nothing and then you don't you don't

take the last step right and like just

like close it out and Link it to the job

that you're actually applying for which

is so important right because then you

know that's that's the recenty effect

you know interviewer at the end of the

interview they remember the last thing

that you said or after a question as you

respond they will anchor on to the last

thing that you said and if the last

thing that you said links it back to the

job that you're applying for and

authentically clearly right don't

pretend that hey you know I did all this

stuff and that's why I'm good for the

job and then like they ask you again

another question then you realize that

oh the house of cuts crumbles right but

if you're talking authentically to it if

if it's your live reality then you know

it it it it grounds it for the

interviewer then they it's very easy for

interviewer to say yeah you know Jason

we had a conversation wow he really keep

on talking about the stuff that actually

matters to me and so let's put him

through the next round or let's make him

an offer we really can't wait to have

him on board m so interesting so when

when people go for interviews they if

you ask for a they give a but for a

person who is smart in an interview you

ask for a you give exactly the kind of

like the role that oh I'm going to be

answering in a way that the person in

the role would have answered that means

I've been doing this and all that so we

want to be able to almost tweak it in a

way that they uh that makes it extremely

relevant to them and we are doing the

job as the interviewer interiew rather

we let the interviewer try to link it we

link it for you and you be like okay

since you link it you kind of like know

what we're talking about yeah it almost

becomes a nice framework right because

you know the interviews that you

typically get at a junior level

sometimes 20 minutes sometimes 30

minutes at most they push you to 45

minutes right um and so if you have the

ability to be very concise and like if

it almost becomes a signpost you know

I've done this this this this this I

know that in this job there's going to

be the need to talk very broadly to

different set sets of people and I've

done that and you know this is how I

would approach it when I come into this

job because I've done it in the past

then for the interview it's like okay

question answered verus sometimes there

this very awkward like oh so I did this

I did this I did this then like you look

at the interviewer interview looks at

you and the interviewer got like okay

question actually interview one to so so

what so basically so what to me because

I'm hiring you for this role exactly

okay so if if let's say um then it

presupposes that before the interview I

need to do a lot of research yeah

right and and how would I let's say I

finished my degree done my internships

and know I finished my degree and I'm

going to be applying for your company um

what steps if you were to put yourself

in my shoes what steps would you take to

try to research as much as possible yeah

great question I mean look there's

there's so much resource today right um

you have a network this may comprise of

your seniors in school who you may have

you know worked with you you have

working friendship with them um your ex

internship um hiring managers yeah just

informly leaders that you've come across

in the past yeah it does require you to

take the time and say like hey would

love to meet you for coffee just want to

talk about stuff I'm not asking for

anything from you um just would like to

catch up and to get some thoughts right

um the ability I supposed to reach out

and say like hey would you be part of my

more my my broaden network so that I'm

more prepared and I can leverage your

knowledge I think it's something that's

always a little bit uncomfortable when

you're at the start of your career cuz

you feel like hey I have nothing to

offer yeah have nothing yeah but

actually there are a lot of times where

you know as folks who are experience we

are actually learning from The Young

Ones as well right um we are learning

perspectives we are learning

you know you could be talking to them

and saying like hey you know you know

prior to qan on this year nobody really

knew about cat GPT but you know if you

had been keeping an eye on it you've

been following the news and you brought

it up then when eventually it comes out

like oh yeah Jason told me about this

half a year ago already right so then I

again have a positive impression of you

because like you're almost ahead of the

curve so you know sort of investing in

investing time and energy in some of

these conversations is really important

and you know one of the best times to do

that is actually when you're doing your

internships right

um when I was when I was a junior one of

the things that one of the seniors told

me was what you do from whatever times 9

to 5 for example right that's that's

your work but what you do after five

that's your career you're building your

career and you know what that may entail

is you know meeting somebody for a

coffee chat yeah um or dinner or drinks

anything right I mean many companies now

have what they call like uh interest

groups right so you know coffee Sports

uh Tech so C almost like C right and

those are great opportunities for you to

meet people in a very nonwork context

and you can ask them like hey so what do

you do yeah and when the time comes

where you know you have a question and

you remember hey actually I met that guy

while we were jamming together he's a

data scientist and this question I have

is a little bit in that realm why don't

I just ping him and ask and the data

scientist guy John for example let's

call him John is more willing to answer

my question because you know we jamm

together or we went for a drink together

so having some of these connections uh

what they call the the weak tie

connections is really really important

what is weak

time um I think weak and weak and strong

yeah so weak and strong right so you

know when we think about networking a

lot people think like w I must like I go

for for networking session I meet Jason

yeah must ask everything about Jason

Jason how many children you have what's

your dog's name what's your address like

what's your blood type right that's

really not too much it's to much too

soon that's not what networking is about

it's not like Jason can give me a job

hey I really want to do this in the

future you got a job you call me right

it's not what it is it is really sort of

like I learn something about you you

learn something about me maybe we

connect on LinkedIn maybe in two or

three weeks time I see an article that

relates to what we talking about I ping

it to you on link and say like hey we

were talking about this like thought you

might find this interesting with no

expectation of a reply right and so

you've created effectively a weak tie

right right right which when the time

comes to to call upon it um you know

you're going to be able to say like hey

Jason I just want to ask you something

yeah you know you have all you have all

these friends right who are like hey can

I bring you out for coffee and you're

like last time I was last time I was fa

I was fa every so because as an fa you

need to do that right you need to start

off there and then it's like hey it's

actually and and it's the same thing

even as fa we trained that is actually

just have a conversation and just just

re rebuild it and if you want to you can

have it on the second conversation uh

because if you actually go in into it

and this is actually taught for us you

know if we're going to have a coffee we

don't talk about it even though it is

let's say it's one of the agendas that

you want to be able to help that person

out in their finances you don't talk

about in the first meeting y you make it

a clean cut that this is really a

catchup if you really want to let's do

another meeting so it makes it very the

gender very clear it's not like hey you

know because then you get The cringy

Stereotype right like oh then then it's

almost a selfing fulfilling prophecy

because like then you think why would

this person help me because I'm not

talking to them I suddenly come and ask

them for stuff so then don't let that

happen let it be a case where this

person like knows you like if I say to

somebody hey you know Jason ho yeah yeah

yeah I know him like you know whatever

right yeah um rather than Jason which

Jason yeah uh so you're visible

basically you're visible and you're

you're above the water so that people

can kind of see you rather than you're

just in your own cave just hope that

your resume will do everything exactly I

mean because people hire people I don't

day yes and and I I forgot what

statistics but it's alarming uh amount

of people who are hired because of

relationships rather than actually going

through the entire process it's just one

phone call and like somebody opens up

and if you think about it it's almost

like preting now yes it should not be a

case and I think companies are

intentionally trying to get away from

like oh I went to ABC uh IV League

school I went to a

certain dashed

school for for secondary school and JC

so therefore I know this guy so I just

hire him right no I think that's not

what we're saying what we're saying is

you know if I know somebody and I've

witnessed their growth I've witnessed

their Journey oh I know their attitude I

work them on a project somewhere then I

can say like hey if we need this person

this the right guy to go to right or

right lady to go to right so um I it

doesn't surprise me I mean in terms of

quality of hire very frequently within

the companies we find that stuff get

getting stuff stuff referring other

people who they've worked with in the

past you know engagement is higher

performance is better everything because

they are vetted what you say like I I I

won't probably refer somebody that I

know that I won't be able to work with

or I kind of like know this person's

character is a little bit questionable y

it's a prescreen right and so you know

you want to in a sense create luck for

yourself by being pre-screened by as

many people as possible so what you're

actually saying is that it's almost a

principle of life that even so I was

just talking to one somebody who was in

FA just now over lunch and he was saying

I was we were just talking like you know

like fa and property can do very well in

Singapore you don't need a degree right

and he's saying that actually the degree

helped me a lot with my a career because

of what network so it's almost the idea

that for us um as we grow in our career

we need to overweight our network if we

don't know anything else we kind of just

overweight and kind of like build

connections with people don't be a

Hermit and just be in your cave yeah uh

try to be uh involved in different parts

and involved in different parts means

also authenticity if I'm interested in

this CC then I join it then it shows

that authenticity then it comes like the

fire rubs fire it it creates that flame

yeah and it's almost then that network

is going to be helping you in your

future Y and what you're talking about

is that um when we give a certain like

oh LinkedIn oh we saw this we give it to

you and all that that is social Capal

that Social Capital that we always

depositing in people and and in a team I

do share this that if you look in

everybody's everybody and then you see

everybody's forehead then some there's a

there's a there's a amount of money

Social Capital that you actually invest

and for those with zero and you ask them

something they'll be like sorry

according to company policy I can't help

you but for those has there has 10,000

100,000 inside because you have invested

invested by helping them invested by um

being just a nice friend and all that

they'll be like yeah Neil for you no

problem man yeah I mean it's like the

force right like I mean obviously

there's a dark side of the force right

there a dark side of the force and I

think it's it's important to balance

that we all know people who like name

drop and they want to lean on their

Network a little bit too much and and I

think that put some people off building

big right because then I know that

you're going to do that to me yeah

exactly

so you know if if you have capability

you ability you have attitude yeah you

know if you have equal amounts of all of

those things compared two people right

so equal ability potential uh attitude

the one with the network will be able to

get stuff done faster right because like

he he knows who he or she knows who to

call on exactly and that then translates

to faster progression yeah and and

because he this person with the network

most likely if he it does it well he's

genuine about it and genuiness is also

the principle of love I do something to

you without any form of return that you

need to give it to me yeah it doesn't

matter it doesn't matter I'll just do it

for you and that that love or that that

ability to do things for others also

help him to open up almost like six Lane

highways that means like for this person

it's a six Lane Highway and while the

other person has no network won't know

how to do that and next time when he's

trying to do something in the career

it's going to be tough as well yeah I

mean it it'll be tougher right you have

to work harder you have to do more but

you're also you're also discounting this

whole idea of human interactions and and

if you discount human interactions or

human dynamics inside a work then you

are you're left with what just the work

that you do and actually that's not

what's going to get you ahead yeah and

especially I think for people who are

coming into the working the workforce at

the moment I mean we've gone through a

crazy past X number of years with coid

right um everybody works from home you

know there was none of the water cooler

talk Etc now I don't you know we

shouldn't go all the way and say like or

should gossip at water cooler all the

time but there's certain amount of

benefit yes

um Adam gr calls it um Collective

effervescence you know I see in the

office walking to the lift hey how are

you what you doing oh I'm working on

this x thing like hey I'm working on y

actually there's a something that we can

work there is the middle ground

why don't we exchange some resource like

we can share some information notes

research and all that and as a result

both X and Y improve now I know I love

work from home as much as the next guy

right but it's very hard for some of

this stuff to happen yeah unless you're

almost physically present like I can

look you in the eye I can get a sense of

you know who you are it's almost

authenticity right I'm more inclined to

trust you because I see you in person

then and you know you can try doing Zoom

networking drinks we we tried right we

tried during Co right you just with no

no alternative it was better than

nothing better than nothing but like pH

yeah and so it almost comes back to the

thing I was saying right you know there

that's your 9 to5 like you'll be given

assignments you'll be given projects

there's work that you need to do but if

you do that 100% even 120% all you're

doing is showing that you can do work

yeah you're not investing in what comes

next in your career almost right um and

nobody can force you to do that um

ideally you do it and there some return

and then you keep doing it yeah my

experience has been that's the case

right you you sometimes you learn more

hanging out with you know managers who

are one two ranks above you then looking

at data sets and like you know going

through training because they are able

to give you that sense of like hey you

know during the the global financial

crisis you know there was this situation

and this is how we dealt with it so the

next time when similar things come up

high interest rates again right oh okay

I I can sort of join the dots and it

just makes you more knowledgeable and

the knowledge that you have almost forms

the Bedrock of innovation yeah because

if you don't know you can't you can't

turn the cube and say like oh how do I

look at it from different angle right if

you don't have the cube yeah and

sometimes getting this Cube as a junior

means investing time in having

conversations I like the idea that when

you you learn so much more from somebody

else and and I think the main

perspective is that you are you are

learning the it's almost like Brand's

essence of chicken even though Brands

you didn't sponsor this right right but

if you want to but if you want to

contact

my down below 100 anyway um so the the

essence of U the the immense problem

that you had comes down to a framework

or principle and that person has seen

that principle and you are taking that

principle so you don't have to go

through that 80% you go through that 20%

that's why we learn faster from people

because that hang on yeah but this the

issue is different because of this

variable and that's the beautiful thing

about networking we can see it as

learning and to some people who don't

really like networking and they see it

as some some people do see it as like

why am I wasting my time or why am I

using people if you see it as learning

and trying to give knowledge to other

people then it's a little bit more

pritable to a lot of people

right so coming back when it comes to uh

understanding the knowledge of the

industry talking to people definitely

reading up on everything else is there

anything else that a person can

do I think there's something to be said

about trying to get experience so let's

say you want to work in digital

marketing or you want to do data science

or engineering software engineering

whatever it is right I mean there's

there's tons

of competitions there's tons of um you

know hackathons and stuff like that that

you can try participate again nobody is

saying that W you know if you don't do

well for this one you must put on your

CV oh I came in 149 out 150 nobody is

saying that but you need to invest in

that as well right so and it shows

attitude it shows attitude that hey

actually if with nothing I'll be

resourceful yeah and you look this is

this is also something that we look for

right we looking for people who know how

to fail as well and For Whom the failure

is not the terminal state right it's

like oh okay I didn't do it so well this

time but never mind I pick myself up I

try again right and maybe the next time

I'm not 149th I come in 120th right and

the of course the the ideal story is wow

I do it a few times the next one like at

some point I become first right but for

some people you know maybe 50th is the

max you can reach yeah and if that's the

case then at least know that right like

hey I put in 100% I know that maybe I'm

never going to be a superstar rockar

kind of computer engineer but now I have

some of this skill set what are the

adjacent roles to that maybe product

maybe um program management that I can

think about because I understand some of

the technicalities relating to uh

engineering right or coding or whatever

right so you you at least in the

industry you you got your hands wet you

got your feet wet and then you are you

might not be it might be this role that

you're playing but you actually did the

hackaton in here but because you're in

that family you know the language and

you know that okay this correlates to

this but it's Downstream two two points

and things like that so you are still

trying and the beautiful thing that I

think if I see somebody who has tried a

lot of things is that this person has

the attitude that we want y yeah and

like you know I think being able to show

progress you know everybody talks about

how we are having a paradigm shift in

the past practice makes perfect right

when we grew up in as kids practice

makes perfect so go practice your maths

I think we are realizing that it's more

practice makes progress right I want to

see that you have the ability to keep

going back to it every time you learn

something you're getting better right

regardless of whether it's coding

regardless of whether it's interpersonal

relationships whether it's regards to

communication you know whatever sort of

career skills might apply in the modern

world if you keep trying and obviously

you know then talk to people see how you

can improve talk to your you know people

who you're working with who you're

working for and they give you input

right then you will see that progress

right and maybe you don't get the you

know shiny star job that you won your

first job but you you know you take a

step in that direction and you

incrementally make your way you know one

of the things that they always say is

cream always Rises to the top right so

if you're good at something eventually

you will get recognized if you keep at

it yeah broadly speaking and so you know

just that keep on keeping on attitude is

really really important especially early

in your career because you know I

wouldn't say that you know you said that

you know nothing I don't think is that

you know nothing right is that you have

a particular knowledge set that may or

may not be fully applicable in the real

world and you need somebody you know you

have the the stone you have the raw

material is sort of cheap so like

Michelangelo look like Michelangelo

David and you need somebody you need

experiences to away so that you get to

that final product right which which is

what people will value super highly true

true I I like to say that when you are

young uh you have high levels of energy

but zero experience or low experience

and you want to be able to trade as much

energy as possible for experience and

experience is doing ccas asking for more

opportunities in your internship always

be the first one to raise your hand and

says let me try it out or quietly behind

try it out and says hey yesterday when

you had that problem uh this this is

what I research on you're like wow great

and you're trading the energy that you

have for experience and that's the only

thing that we can do so for for people

early in their careers don't be afraid

to work like crazy because it is it is

what you need at that point in time and

after a while you can start to

specialize but at this point in time be

as sponge right as hungry as possible

and don't afraid to be wrong because as

a hiring manager I would rather you try

and be wrong than you came up with a 100

reasons why didn't want to try right

yeah because if you try and you're wrong

and we can together figure out where you

where along the chain you did something

that in a sense got this wrong answer

yeah we can work on that but if you

didn't try and you say oh you know but

because it's so hard I don't want to go

and talk to this person this person very

difficult to find you've not sort of

pushed hard enough against it right very

difficult for me to say like okay let's

work together to bring I'll come back

I'll come back to the first thing let's

go and try right just try first yeah

because moving and the car is not moving

very hard to turn yeah right I mean I I

I accept that not every environment is

in a sense forgiving of failing right I

mean but I think an increasing number of

managers today recognize that especially

with the young employees interns or

fresh grads yeah we almost expect that

you're going to fail yeah right um we

don't want you to fail we want to set

you up for success but we have it in

mind that there's going to be you know

you you wouldn't see something that most

of us would see because you don't have

that experience and you come up with

something different and that's okay so

now let's explain or you know you

shouldn't have done it this way because

you're opening the company to a huge

amount of risk whether Financial

reputational Etc so therefore this is

the reason why we do it a different way

and you may say like hey actually I hear

what you're saying I think we can tweak

what I've done so that we manage for

that risk but we still get the benefits

of What I've Done Right and that's

that's when I think hiring manager is

like wow well done right because for

many of us you know there's baggage from

the past and there's also bandwith right

we we can look at some of this stuff but

when interns or fresh grads are able to

come in and say like hey I tried this

thing

differently let's post on social media

like let's run a Tik Tok uh campaign and

you know the hiring man say oh but you

know we not done that in the past

because you know we're very worried of

this this and this and and you're ready

to say like okay maybe not Tik Tok

maybe a bit lame alternative maybe like

LinkedIn right something like that or

your focus group with 50 other friends

that you have yeah right whatever it is

that but at least it shows um progress

it shows that you've done something yeah

and you're hustling you know because we

want to see that um you are growing yes

right and I think increasingly companies

you know we have coming back to an

interview like we have an idea of what

are the what's the idea candidate we

want right like in terms of who would

absolutely kill it in a role yeah the

reality is

that in you know in the past people will

look for five things five things super

good let's go right if I cannot find

this five things I don't want to higher

I think now we are realizing hey

actually if it's three or four things

but of the fourth and the fifth thing

you are super Keen right you are able to

learn you are not afraid to make

mistakes within reason

mhm the chances are that I'm going to

get an end product at the end of a good

company's sort of program with you if

this person the five things yeah they

come in and do those five things and

like oh

great 100% meets yeah versus if you're

willing to grow very often you find that

this person gets to 120 and the guy who

came in with five things is still at the

five things because like you know he or

she thinks that they can already do it

so therefore they don't push as hard to

learn more right right so you're you're

almost saying that also the idea of

showing some vulnerability in interview

or in a resume uh and some some of the

failures can actually be a good point

because it shows your tenacity and shows

that's that Spirit of like

the that fighting spirit and that

sometimes um that sometimes is what uh

we as a person hiring we want to see

that you have failed but you've tried

and yes uh you have you know the reasons

why you fail and you know how to

mitigate that so that kind of looks like

even though it's three plus two lower

things it kind of looks like these two

look good really good right now because

you are self-aware yeah which is what

you talked about just now is about

self-awareness and I'm interested to

know curious also about how do you think

somebody who is new um to the job market

how do they increase self-

awareness I think very often we s of so

there's there's two ways to look at this

uh there are two personas one is

actually you sort of know yourself

already like you know you know you wake

up in the morning if you have to do

certain things you're just very excited

you could have two hours of sleep but

you know you're very excited to go and

do it because you know that once you get

there it's going to be like super fun

and super engaging and you know it may

be a bit challenging there may be

obstacles but you're really looking

forward to it but you go to the

interview room suddenly like uh don't

know what to say yeah and in those cases

it's about getting the vocabulary to

express right and you can prepare for

that right if you if you think like if

somebody ask you like what are your

strengths and you're like I have no idea

what my strengths are right they they

are commercially available assessments

for you to get a sense of what your

strengths are obviously don't just spit

out the same thing right you know it

gives you the material the framework by

which you can think about what these

strengths are which helps you to

communicate it better to your

interviewers right then there's a so

that's the first Persona the second

Persona is somebody who actually doesn't

know their strength because they've not

pushed it hard enough right um for those

folks I think you know it's really about

getting out there right and try and

silence the the you know the there's on

on The Muppet Show there's a two uncles

who sit at the the gallery and you can't

do

it the inner Skeptics the inner right

you to try and silence that and say you

know what I'm going to try right um it's

funny uh when when I the first time I

went snowboarding mhm

everybody's like noing what it's going

to be very cool right I'm like go up the

hill go up the slopes and I'm going to

come down right yeah I got stuck at the

bun slope and I didn't what is bunny

slope the bunny slope is like the

beginner slope literally children

literally like it's like that and like

it's yeah almost everybody seven out

eight seven out of 10 people were kids

with yeah I didn't even get St coming

down the slope I got St going up the

slope because the idea is that they have

this lift you put it you s cap it in

between pushes you up pulls you up right

I fell down there like stuck there for

like maybe half an hour and the

instructor was like wow you're really

tenacious you keep going at it So

eventually I got up right and then then

you had the fun right but you know I

could at that point at that point say

like ah you know forget it I you know

this Belgian waffles and hot chocolate

is more sh right I'm just going to hang

out there and wait my um I do feel like

putting yourself in situations where you

know we when we talk about inner skeptic

where you you're learning to tell them

hey I'm not going to listen to you yeah

you have to find some of these

situations in life where the staks are

lower yeah Stakes of like emotional

health as well as physical health so

like obviously don't like in a skeptic

oh I'm going to go like do bouldering

without a without

harness please don't do that you need to

start finding things like for me running

is my thing like I I I'm not a runner

like my natural body shape is not for

running mhm but once in a while I will

get myself back into the routine of you

know let's go run right just so that I

get used to that feeling of like your

body is telling you no you can't do it

or like you know maybe people look at

you like you can see all the very spel

very tall their stri is like one strike

is like three of my stries and they run

like they're floating on air but they

look at me and then but I can say no I'm

I'm I'm just going to try I'm just going

to run and I'm going to cultivate in

myself the inner ability to even when I

tell myself or somebody tells me n you

shouldn't do this yeah you you you do it

right so for again coming back to the

second Persona if you don't know your

strengths yeah then put yourself in

situations where you start to learn your

strengths don't opt out right um don't

take the don't take the easy way out

most of the time now it's it's a very

privileged position to say that right

but I think it applies even if you are

not in a very privileged position so you

know it could just

be I feel like I want to uh learn how to

build a website yeah then you just build

it it quietly in the in the back end you

don't need to put your name there right

you can be your like your secret project

and you see how it grows yeah agree so

it's almost like the idea also that um

you we mentioned you you mentioned to me

before this that uh you did a lot of

ccas in University right what were you

doing um too many but what like what I

mean I guess I dived hit in right in

University uh so I was in like I was in

two sports I was in photography club I

was in various like

student I mean we we worked with the

yellow ribon project to try and raise a

awareness for ex offenders reintegrating

into society we kayaked from like uh

where is it Bangarang to uhan near right

um so something like fundraising I mean

I try to do as many as possible then

like at some point I said to myself like

hey you know it would be nice if I did

something that was a little bit more

career slanted and so I got involved in

the business case club and represented

my

University went to Thailand competed in

what I maintain is the most challenging

of the competitions because it's 40

hours uh broadly you don't get very much

sleep most business case competitions

are 24 hours so you can thank it for 40

you have to like really push yourself

way push your way through and in each of

these like each of these things that I

put myself yeah through as it were um I

learned something new yeah either

externally but also importantly

internally right um I think

sort of in every and every time that I

felt oh yeah yeah now I know actually I

would go through something else and like

oh actually there's more to learn so I

know something but there's still a lot

that I don't know right and I think if

you seek out the opportunities to keep

trying to level up whether it's like

talking to you know like in my role uh

working at

HR a very easy way is just like I'm

going to Silo myself right and I just do

what I want to do yeah um but what helps

is going to actually go down to the

ground talking to the hiring managers

that I support talking to the interns

that the fresh grads that I hire yeah

talking to Business Leaders what what's

your priorities talking to my HR

counterparts and you know learning

learning learning learning these are all

like nuggets right it's almost like the

Mosaic right you collect towers and you

bring it all together you create this

Mosaic um that is valuable when you do

your actual job yeah so what is so

interesting that what you said is that

um um if you don't put yourself in

situations where you feel stretched

right uh you will never discover who you

are yeah right it's almost like uh I

know I am I am tall for example I'm tall

I'm athletic for whatever example I have

good jeans but I've never tried

basketball I would never know I'm going

to be good at that uh and maybe if I did

try and I tried basketball and I tried

gymnastics which means I have a

disadvantage in gymnastics because I'm

so tall um it helps me to close doors

and open law and helps me to understand

myself yeah and what is also interesting

and what you said is that uh it's not so

much of just how would you know

sometimes when you are talking to a

candidate how do you know what what the

people really need behind the curtain

how do you know the mechanics behind it

yeah I mean I was fortunate I started my

career within business so I I joined the

graduate program that allow me to rotate

across different parts of the business

in different functions some were better

some some are not so good but again

helped me to develop an understanding

for the environment and the Machinery

almost right the framework the

infrastructure that I was working within

yeah um I think there are certain things

that you learn in school right that help

you to like for every company Under the

Sun Revenue Minus cost equals profit

yeah right but what does that look like

for this the different companies or even

in a public public uh office uh Public

Service kind of there still Revenue

right Revenue comes from income from the

government there still costs and ideally

you try and minimize the profit as it

were or you rechannel it back right yeah

um so you know I guess trying to apply

your and trying to

understand why we're doing certain

things um what's different in the

current organization that you're working

in versus so like when I when I hire for

oops I hire for uh different teams MH I

try my best to try and get a sense and I

tell my team like look we need to go

talk to managers we need to talk to um

the HR generalists right to be on the

same page so we understand strategically

what's happening within the company

where are they going and then we can

pull in the same direction we can roll

in the same direction we're rowing on

the same beat as it were and you know so

that's what I've tried to do in the past

right and when you are able to do that

in addition to firstly now you you can

appear you know there were times where I

went for career Fest I'll talk to a

candidate and I'll explain what's going

on actually what part of the business

are you from I'm not from the business

I'm not from business team I'm from the

business but I'm not from a business

team I work in HR like wow you actually

know quite a lot of you know so much

about that yeah because if you're able

to do that then and you're able to

understand what are the key bits that we

need and why it why it connects to the

vision or the mission of the company

then when I go to talk to a candidate

it's not just based on like oh I'm going

to look for good grades I'm going to

look for particular positions or certain

internship that you have done in the

past that that comes on reputable name

this is all leaning on other people's

preting for you yeah but you can then

talk to them and say like hey you know

through our conversations I guess that

you're a very people person you like to

reach out oh you know I need to hire for

business I need to hire for sales this

kind of persona makes sense there right

so that's put you through right the rest

of the stuff you can learn right so like

what products you're selling that's all

right so that that's stuff that you

learn but you know you always talk about

like you know the E needs to fly the

fish needs to swim like you ask the fish

to fly there's flying fish but they

don't fly as high as a eagle right so

it's it's sort of you can only find the

eagle candidates for the eagle jobs if

you understand almost the eagle

organization what they want what they

really want so it sounds almost like

that even though you are in the front

line um you are you are also in the back

in that it's like almost like a hrbp

that you are like understanding the

business and you find that important to

understand the business so that that

candidate had that Clarity of like you

also know which candidates will fit in

the business because if you really think

about it um all of us need to understand

the business yes we if we don't

understand a business then we're just

putting this circle into that Circle and

we don't understand implications because

there's so many variables where how we

do this simple job can actually be

maximized yeah and yeah I guess not to

scare our friends right who live in

Singapore and who have grown up in

Singapore want to work in Singapore the

reality is that companies almost expect

singaporeans to bring more than just

that right it's not good enough to like

oh I as you do ABC I do ABC done n yeah

right because from a cost perspective

you know singaporeans at least in the

region are the highest paid like point

for point right there's expectation that

you bring more right and

therefore like you know for me it's

always let been something that I've

always tried to do right like if

somebody tells me hey I need to do this

the first thing I ask is why like what

we trying to achieve here like you know

how does this plug into something more

broadly and if that question is not

clear then how do I do something so that

it brings me one step closer for me to

be able to plug into right the main

right as it were right and actually add

value to the organization that I'm

working for yeah so yeah I mean as you

say it's it's import like this kind of

skill sets are something that's very

important yeah so if you are a junior

engineer you a junior salesperson you

are

junior accountant knowing understanding

more broadly what's trying what's

happening what the company is trying to

do is important and it allows you to do

your job better yeah I used to lead a a

sales team um and they would ask me like

hey we have two loan products one of

them is installment based and one of

them is like it's not installment it's

just time based right you can pay how

how much want as long as you pay the

minimum as long as by the end of it you

pay it off right then there no late fees

Etc they

said why why why why should we sell one

or the other and when I explained it to

them and like what it means to the

company so you know from a treasury

perspective it's very different one is

more profitable than the other um then

that helped them to better understand

and like it's not that it is it wasn't

like uh it completely changed how they

did things yeah but now they understood

if I sell this particular product to a

customer what's the benefit to the

company as well as to the customer if I

sell this other one what's the benefit

to the customer as well as to the

company and then you know again we talk

about progression progression is not a

Time based thing it's not about I've

been working in this job for five years

so that's why I should be promoted on

next Ro that's a long time ago 10 year

plays a very big part it can no longer

be right so it this is the stuff that

brings you to the next level you have

the ability to

understand how things join together and

the next level is about your ability to

see further into the future so that when

something is coming you know how to

respond and of course there managing

other people and all those other skills

that come along and again coming back

we're going to sound like broken record

but you have to do to learn you don't

you know there's there's no online

training there's no textbook that would

teach you this stuff yeah yeah so if I

were to try to wrap up everything um one

thing that I've been hearing again and

again in terms of your life also that um

that tenacity to try to understand as

much as possible in the various business

uh what the business really entails and

and go deeper into that that helped you

with your own success and that would

also help a candidate with their own

success to just don't look at a surface

look deeper look at why that company is

functional or what's that function on

the bigger process and if let's say that

they need they if you're in that company

and then you are serving that role and

they need a bigger perspective you

already have that perspective and that's

the value at it also helps you to you

know people talk about branding and

positioning yeah and people some you

know the negative way to see is like

just talk a lot right yeah yeah just add

time just add time just like just just

take up space right yeah yeah yeah but

what the funny thing is that also has a

part to play yeah but if done wrongly

yeah pisses everybody off so how do you

take up space the answer is that you

have a broader sense of what's going on

so that you can ask questions so like

you know we come back to that that thing

that we talked about right um product a

product B you can ask a question hey so

why are we selling more of this and more

of that why are we running a product

campaign and a sales challenge to sell

more of this and more of that yeah and

then you can then come up with ideas

that that helps you to build your own

knowledge base and helps you then to

give back to the organization to drive

the organization's success in the future

yeah awesome uh thank you so so much

Neil I I think um we have a lot to

unpack and we have unpacked a lot and I

appreciate your time and for those

candidates at home or those candidates

are trying to figure out understand that

um you need to just keep moving uh keep

learning so that you can figure out and

um I think the worst kind of candidates

are the candidates that just don't want

to put in the effort before that

interview and that resume and um uh so

don't be that calm person right so thank

you so much Neil for this time thank

you

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