TRANSCRIPT

Is The "Perfect" Job Even Out There? - Coaches | The CJH Podcast EP17

*Captions are taken directly from YouTube and may not be 100% accurate

[Music]

opportunity welcome everyone uh today we

have a very exciting group of people

here and we're all going to be

discussing about career and the future

of career and all that things right so

I'm going to just get you guys to

introduce yourself is that okay so Sam

all right hi everyone I'm Santa so I

call myself a career futurist because I

work with clients to achieve Career

Success in their career journey by

equipping them with upto-date market

trends as well as career related soft

skills awesome thank you Jean I call

myself abundance life coach abundance uh

and there are three components uh money

Mastery and mindset yeah so that's what

I focus on when I help others thank you

thank you Chen he my name is Chen Tren

so my area of specialty is agile

leadership in the nut sh how do you be a

relevant effective leader no matter how

your context change and my my latest

passion is about uncovering how great

managers bring about happy

workplaces thank you thank you so today

uh I brought you guys here because

really I'm very curious about this whole

idea of Ideal career and a lot of the

people that I see or even come up to me

and ask me about career always like it's

always finances finances they like okay

we need to buy this we need to buy that

and then we need to be there so I want

to just hear from you guys like what do

you feel is a definition your own

personal definition of an ideal career

mhm I just want to say that at first uh

at first it's almost like choosing wife

or girlfriend

right uh a lot of things have to do with

uh criteria and prioritization right yes

yeah so when I was much younger is

mostly starting pay right yes and the

prestige right yeah so I almost got into

law actually yeah because my my grades

thankfully were quite good yeah so the

criteria was like quite obvious I'm

going into law because good money uh

sounds good that I'm a lawyer yeah yeah

very good parents sounds super happy

yeah my my my my late dad uh was very

happy that I actually applied for an law

and I got in yeah and then after that

got national

service and then I changed my decision

yeah just after or oh my goodness to

mescom journalism and TV and my dad

frowned yeah and that's why I realized

that he there's other criteria right not

just money and and Prestige uh um and

that's that started my journey of

thinking about he what's the ideal

career which included your own personal

preference like something you find Joy

doing yeah but then after that I got

married and then with three children and

then now another criteria stability work

life balance yeah so life becomes very

complicated you know so I've been

thinking about why is the ideal career

for about 20 plus years

now still thinking W stilling still

thinking it's still evolving it it

depends on your age as well right yes

exact of yeah and with elderly parents

right all these then you start to think

like he I do I really want to pursue

this until I give up time with elderly

parents so w it is complicated not not

so straightforward I think by now about

six seven criteria right well I think

your parents will have flipped if when

you actually jump from law to mcom yeah

my my that especially he was a n

graduate you know n is what as in N yeah

about in the good old days is no

just okay and you yeah and then uh

always a elitist kind of person so look

at me like what happened to you and then

my brother by the way I have an elder

brother who is the traditional power one

like uh engineering then work for SEL

then Microsoft than Amazon so like

what's wrong with this other

son always one I'm most the

same thank you thank you I think seasons

in life like you mentioned is spot on

what we need in life would change as we

learn grow hopefully

mature um the criteria too and

everyone's circumstances are different

yeah at the end of the day for me

personally it is knowing yourself

knowing what you want in life like

people say I want to be happy yeah but

very big everybody wants to be happy as

right money makes you happy right money

Mak how does one be happy that is where

we need to tap into our DNA to uncover

what are you passionate about what are

you great at what what makes your soul

sing when you do it and you can't

Discover it until you have lot of

experience and you evaluate it and our

priorities would change and undeniable

we are always subjected to pressures

from society the Norms the we do we

conform or do we be the Maverick y can I

be a combination of both so is that

ongoing dialogue with ourselves to

uncover what does the ideal career look

like yeah so I understand that you were

you teaching for a very very long period

of time right how many years 14 14 years

and to come out from teaching is a very

big jump what do your friend say are you

crazy yeah super stable right super

stable

yeah yeah yeah yeah those who are very

brutal they were like are you crazy then

those who are very caring are you okay

yeah do you need

mental counseling do you need to see a

shrink or something you know what

happened you know are you triggered are

you traumatized things like that it's

very difficult uh the analogy I like to

use is have you seen this film of an old

person wanting to get on the escalator

so I remember this one the Auntie was

drag the husband on the escalator but

the uncle is afraid so he's like one

foot on then he cannot get on then he

try to get on his steps off again so

actually that was my state for five six

years W of the last 14 years of my

career uh you are like am I all in or am

I out am I all in or am I out that limbo

state where you are neither here nor

there so it's very difficult to make the

switch But ultimately it was the fear of

having regrets at the end of

life that's thing I wanted to avoid that

made me change right so that was that

but what was that criteria that changed

what was that criteria that changed uh

it was more the realization so I had a

health uh issue in

2014 okay so I was pushed into the

operating theater first time undergoing

GA and I was asked to sign the letter of

inity in case you like never wake up

right and then I'm like Oh shoot that's

it if my life were to end in that moment

what do I have to show like that's it

you know so oh shoot so I I I made a

wish if please let me wake up okay if I

wake up I promise I will make full use

of my life can make four years of my

given talents it's kind of like you know

this saying you have

the gift but you never open it in your

life and it took me at that time 30 30

plus years so more I was mid-30s then I

realized that oh now I better open the

gift and start doing something about it

so realizing that I am mortal that we do

not live on forever that time is limited

yeah better cium you know see the yeah

yeah yeah yeah on my actually on my

phone that well yeah no on my phone

there's this uh phrase momento Mori so

momento Mori basically means uh Remember

You Must Die oh yes so what is the

background is that um if uh if a king

goes into battle in Rome last time and

then uh when they come back for V and

they victory in battle and then there's

this person who is behind them

Whispering M momento Mori they

understand that yeah everything is

fleeting they remember you must die it's

almost like capm but it's more of like

we are mortal M and what do we want to

do in that mortality is that that

success might never might not always be

there what is meaning to you what is

important yeah yeah and then it's like

I've been reflecting on this whole idea

of like hey actually tomorrow if I pass

away what's going to happen like who do

you impact and then was your life um

worth it for you personally yes yeah

yeah did you make a difference right did

you even make a difference do you even

make a dance on the world univers yeah

yeah yeah but the funny thing also is

that when I when I ask so many different

people some people don't want to make

that kind of difference some people

their difference is their family and

their dent in their family is so much

more important than the dent in the

universe but for some of us it's the

other way it's like it's like yes family

is important but I also want to impact

more people yes so it's like really

criteria and also different people are

different yeah Sam how about you ideal

career I never really thought about this

thing called ideal career when I was

younger uh I just remember that I need

to do well in life studies yeah I need

to do well in studies I need to get a

decent job that that's pretty much I

understood but after working a while a

few years I realized that this is not

going to work out reason being is

because if the person above me doesn't

leave there's no progression yeah and I

think in especially in today's

generation is very clear you know you

have five generation working in a

corporate setting it's very hard for you

to have that kind of growth if if you

really want it and I actually uh agree

with what y have been mentioning I think

your life face changes and so your

priority changes so there was this

period of my life where by I thought I

was settle down so I think time

flexibility was very important to me so

that's why I decided to take the plunge

and go into entrepreneurship thinking

that I will have time flexibility to

opposite to like to you s you're on

you're on also yeah I guess but the

thing is probably you can have that

autonomy yeah rather than the clocking

clock out system so so that that got me

started entrepreneurship and I think

there was no turning back ever since so

I don't really see myself as someone who

uh aspire to climb the corporate leather

in fact it's something that no this I I

know very clearly it's not something

that I I look forward to so I I think

ideal career to me is enjoying what I do

that's very important and at the same

time so one very basic Benchmark when I

when I had for myself when I was younger

is if I wake up dragging myself to work

I know I need to quit ready that that

was my very basic minimum Benchmark no

coaching no learning no nothing if I hit

going to work I know I need to quit very

soon well that's like majority of people

man yeah yeah Monday BL Tuesday BL Wes

but I literally will yeah but but I

really enjoy my work when I do my work

so if I know that I stop enjoying I I

will quit yeah so so that was the basic

Benchmark that's a funny thing so uh our

grandparents time that looks like w

something is wrong with a person with

that kind of criteria because last time

our grandparents time is really just put

you have very good already right then um

the only way to excel in work is that's

why true education so that's why degree

holders are so important last time but

of course that's the only way now um we

are hearing that actually more and more

people uh this whole idea of um self

actualization is more and more important

and I think the sometimes the older

generation is like what what do you mean

like you're really like just work yeah

right and then they it's interesting

because they see the new generation of

people as why do you have so many

criteria yeah why can't you just have

criteria about this financial stability

it exactly you have a job very good

already then just stay there for the

next 20 years but noway like I think our

children and all that will never have

like oh very years it's going to be like

it's tough because if let's say someone

10 20 years my senior

stay in his role for 20 years I will get

my progression for the next 20 years and

that will not I will not get a salary

bomb that's for sure I mean that's how

organization works right so I think when

the older generation look at the younger

generation and call them job Hopper

sometimes I feel that the term can be

used quite Loosely you need to

understand what is going on behind and

in the macrospace evolvers not not hoers

yeah but I think the whole idea of 20

years 10 years no more already nowadays

it's always like uh 3 years 5 years and

even the idea of like the more you hop

the higher your Bump right you don't so

so many things about like hey actually

hopping is good then for me when I think

about hopping the reason is that

actually if you hop then you are being

exposed to more things and if you're not

exposed you will never know yes so my

thinking when it comes to this whole

idea of Ideal career you will never know

so my analogy always for ideal career is

this it's like food l so last last time

when you um when you're younger your

food your favorite food at 10 years old

is what french fries yeah that was a

whole marketing gimi yeah even just like

a Happy Meal so last time 10 years old

our food is very different our favorite

food after 20 years very different then

30 then 40 we have different kinds of

food that we feel that actually is this

is my favorite this is my I really like

this for the season yeah favorite for

the season you haven't try others yes so

another way I look at it is also fashion

like we evolve our fashion according to

what we feel last time so when you look

at your old photographs right it's like

iir it's like really like cut here and

it's like like the mushroom

kind

like but then but then um as you evolve

then you know that he actually that

doesn't suit me anymore because

something inside changed yes and then I

start to explore so the idea of

exploration I feel is very important for

a person in their career however HR

doesn't like that yeah yeah bosses also

doesn't like that so what should like so

what do you think what should bosses and

HR do because they know that exploration

is important what do you think they

should do then HR accept the

reality yeah besides that except the

reality definitely is true but what else

what I think a lot of uh coaching is

necessary I mean it's a relatively new

word in Singapore I mean Fitness

coaching has been a longest time but

career coaching coing uh live coaching

has been quite new uh so I realized

because uh just the past week I've been

working with some like Hotel Banks Stock

Exchange and so on I I realized that um

the system like just how you talk about

a system that is very rigid and it

doesn't allow individuals to explore to

explore like hey maybe this maybe that

because it brings a a lot of in

instability to the system back to like

Matrix movie kind of thing right so uh I

I feel that this will continue to be a

wrestling match for 5 10 years and it

should be I mean it keeps the

organization alive right yeah where HR

needs to think about coaching

individuals starting from let's say on

boarding right 20 something years old

you know what is the path you want to

explore for this season exactly why you

say oh maybe now I want to learn more

about sales or data analytics or

whatever and I think companies nowadays

are open to that uh certain large

companies also they allow them a bit of

like three months here six months there

right yeah and I I I personally highly

encourage that and at the end of the day

uh maybe two years later they need to

choose something to stabilize right yeah

at least for another season because by

then maybe they will get married maybe

they have their first kid so I don't

think they it's healthy you know to have

6 months 6 months 6 months month it's

not so healthy and they themselves will

feel that they are not progressing also

right yeah and I feel that that's

another season where they will learn

that he time to be a HD in data or in

sales yeah and then at some point you

know like maybe 14 years later they'll

feel like he well I've been h of sales

for 10 years I think enough time to have

mli transition not

crisis and do something if if they are

not retrench know then they will

actively maybe resign or plan or talk to

HR again and say like hey is there any

opening for other things okay A bit a

personal story here so I was very bored

with my role uh Singapore store exchange

by the way so I studied journalism TV

right yeah then I work for Singapore St

exchange and then I told my department

head I say sorry I I I don't think it's

suitable for me I want to go to Media C

SP or something then they

say let's explore something else and I

when I change Department it was called

investor relations which is not media at

all but I loved it Al so I traveled with

the CEO to um Tokyo to London New York

and then it was a brand new thing for me

you know I had to take notes on uh what

what do uh ar e means you know equity

stakeholding and that's a very new thing

so I felt like a child again you

learning again you so I feel like when I

look back you know my career has been

quite colorful and helped me grow you

know not stable at all you know but at

some point at least I stayed seven years

in the same company so not exactly job

hopping or yeah that's fine yeah so all

these are the data point that help me

understand this whole thing called

Career progression yeah what do you guys

think about like what what can HR bosses

do now I think this is a collective

effort so firstly the society is

starting to embrace the fact that all

right if you want to retain Talent if

you want your business to be competitive

you need to have career Pathways within

the organization and that trans that

that must have some level of

transparency so if today I'm in the

marketing department and I realize I

that I want to pick up some tech skills

I'm able to upgrade myself and I'm able

to do internal transfer so in career

terms we talk about career Mobility or

internal Mobility or internal transfer

so I think big organizations are

starting to realize it if they want to

retain Talent they want to save more

money and they want to make their

employees happier they have to have that

framework so it's a new thing it's very

very new so in recent years um uh the

Career Development Association of

Singapore has been trying to work very

closely with let's say the governing

body like let's say with NC Union to

work with organization to create that

that that framework so once that

framework is up then is a lot of

coaching involved you know coaching the

HR coaching the bosses and also coaching

the employees because I think if you

want to have uh asking you also need to

know how to ask poly you canot go to

your boss hey I want this yeah I I don't

think I think that that communication

must still yeah the respect must still

be done poly so so I think it takes it's

really all hands on that if you really

want this thing to work out well it's

funny the whole idea of career Mobility

is uh sounds very sexy and sounds very

good right but I've also spoken to some

very big Tech firms like hey actually

yeah we do have that right but then they

I ask a little bit deeper as like no

actually my boss won't let me go oh okay

okay so they have it as policy but they

don't Implement so even though they say

they want to and all that but it's like

wow I I I need you as this hit count to

do this you leave and all that so it's

extremely disruptive so how because the

they even though you might have that

policy people might not believe you

because they seen through facts that

actually this doesn't happen it's true

because I think the people leader at the

top must Al must be the the first level

to embrace this yeah if they Embrace

this they see this as a high level big

picture that will work for everyone then

they they will be very encouraging but

you are right there are a lot of uh high

level leaders May might a struggle to

let go of people because that means to

say they need to find people to train

again and and that's what yeah notice uh

at least from my own experience

companies generally have two kinds of

hire yeah uh one kind of hire is people

they can develop into leaders and for

those they actually encourage career

Mobility including in schools right yeah

and then the second kind they functional

right for example I was after Stock

Exchange which really treated me as

someone to be groomed as a leader and

therefore I switched Department several

times uh with the blessings and then

once I changed to the another bank which

I shall not name I I was treated like a

Machinery function function because I

mean I was I received double pay pushed

over and therefore they say I'm paying

you this much to perform this role right

so they are not thinking of me of hey

how do I have Mobility so that they GRE

me just perform this very well and we'll

give you bonus keep quiet about Mobility

so I realize but at the same time in

that bank I see other people having that

Mobility sent to London 3 years Tokyo 2

years of a certain race or so I mean

that that company belong to a certain

country and people of that nationality

have Mobility I am not of that

nationality I have no Mobility so that's

my observation of some company it's true

it's true I mean things like this do

happen in organization yeah these are

human human factors yeah human factors I

mentioned school because I I volunteer

in some schools and I know some

principles right because they are

groomed to be maybe the top Echelon of

Singapore so they three years in this

Elite School two years in this Elite

School some of my ex-classmates also are

in that league but for H of science or

physics know can 25 years do that one

right I think it's quite varable in any

large system is the leadership mindset

that makes the biggest difference so

going back to your question what can HR

do right to engage the five generations

in the workplace we cannot address these

issues or challenges with any policy you

have to so as b as HR then play the role

of business partners be HR business

partners equip the people Leaders with

or the leaders of Leaders with the most

upto-date

mindset understanding Workforce needs

understanding neuro diversity there's no

one siiz F all like a policy that works

well in Bank a might not work in Bank B

how we run School a and school B would

be different and I think everyone is in

a constant state of finding themselves

right The Perennial question we ask

ourselves in our lifetimes is who am I

and who am I tend to change so a

metaphor that I someone taught shared

before how do I find the passion in my

life it's like taking a bottle of coke

Coca-Cola and you are shaking it and you

are trying to see what which are the

bubbles that come out so it's like how

you experience 32 careers before landing

this one right if otherwise you would

have gone to 34th 35th 36 right so is

that stay of shake of agitating the

bottom of Coca-Cola but not everyone

will be agitating the Coca-Cola some of

them just want stability yes some people

want Mobility

I like to think of it in terms of what

is your

responsibility as a people leader then

be guided by that

principle to me it always trickers down

to a few things are you helping people

think better and do better think for

themselves think for the think for the

team think for the organization and are

they doing better are they going to

leave you be one year two years three

years sometimes I I I even three five

years in a job is a bit long by today's

standards it's like half a year people

will be thinking oh should I change my

job or not you know they they need that

constant learning so however long they

stay with you by the time they leave

your hands have these people become

better employees better human beings so

I think about it as a the overarching

one I think about is employability have

I made my team member more employable

so it's not about come here be the

specialist check these boxes make sure I

pay you double and you can give me two

three times more outcomes uh and not

about okay certain group I want them to

move or not move I think it is a

constant tension between what the

organization wants people to to do and

conversation between employees and their

leaders what do they really want in

their lives uh we are not in the state

where

we always have choice right so most

people are

employed but you always have a choice to

say I want career

Mobility I would like to have

progression can HR also educate people

what does progression mean it doesn't

mean promotion it's not possible there

aren't that many levels to be promoted

into every year yeah if I work 30 years

I can't be promoted 30 times yeah right

so what else would constitute this

definition of progression so it's a

state of constant flux which HR is in

the best position to help leaders and

employees come to a

uncomfortable

balance you know that everything is

imperfect but it's imperfect balance we

need to get into that state because it

cannot be fully stable once that happens

I think we get too comfortable and we

stop learning yeah I think one of the

greatest challenge When I See This is

that if you are so good in this I train

you up from 4 upon 10 to 8 upon 10 you

tell me now from a now you want to do B

and you are two upon 10 then I got to

put in so much effort to train you to be

competent above average that means 6

upon 10 then after you leave again to

something else then it's the idea that

wow there's a lot of um training and

development and coaching that needs to

be done

organizations don't have that whole

department to say that hey I'm going to

train you for that yes because they have

everything is functional and if you want

to it might be even easier to is either

they set up their whole department well

or really you just have to leave yeah

and then you go to somewhere else where

they will train you for that I think

that's the challenge for businesses and

all that they they don't have the time

to train people yeah I think that's the

whole mindset shift that's needed

upskilling someone ensuring that they

stay and enable is

not only the job of the l andd

department H it's not I give you an

example we can go for a simple holiday

we just went like my family and I we

just went to Mala we could have just

gone in come out don't learn anything

right but it is the questions that you

ask the kids that will help them

learn be about the history of the

place the human to human dynamics that

they have observed that preference about

the kinds of food that they have tasted

places that they have experienced to

uncover more about themselves and it

just takes you 10 seconds to ask a great

question so what I'm seeing is for

leaders they are handicapped because

they don't ask great questions and we

are talking about crazy good questions

they are like crazy good questions that

will totally blow your mind and change

your perspectives I your questions are

very people oriented questions uh and

because I meet a lot of business leader

their questions are very profit oriented

questions so they ask great questions

yeah you know like uh can you do this uh

at lower

budget can you uh please cut off 20% of

your team but still produce the same

result or even double the result but

those are close

questions okay not so crazy question but

that's more developmental question yeah

and it's coaching questions so the the

idea sharing also is the idea where um a

leader needs to start to assume the role

of a coach and assume the role of

actually very much a not only your boss

but a career coach that means I'm in for

the Long Haul with you to be able for

you to succeed in your career you might

choose somewhere else and I give you my

blessing how many bosses are like that

very when I wrote my book very sad you

know I said good bosses how many of you

have good bosses I said I can count on

less than the fingers on one hand in my

14 years but those that I work with they

really transform my life those six

months even if 6 months one year you

work under their leadership you can

really fly you can really fly because

they make you think about things that

you have never thought of before that's

why I say the role of a leader is to

help people think better so that they

can do better put something of quality

in their heads so that they can judge

for themselves um this struggle about

huh I promote you I try so hard to groom

you and then you got to go think about

the healthy Detachment healthy

Detachment okay I think this quote from

Richard Branson will give you some

comfort uh treat treat treat people so

well that they won't leave

you treat them so well that they won't

leave you but if they leave you it's

okay give them your best blessing

because now these Boomerang employees

are quite common they will come back in

some shape of form yep yep yep so

organizations from what we shared is

that they need to start to change and

the processes from the last 50 years

they don't have are not equipped for

that they need to be coaches they need

to develop even not only the L&D team

needs to develop but the leaders

themselves also need to develop within

there to say that okay yeah you want to

go that way and try it out how about

then the individual like if you were to

let's say somebody comes to you now and

then like I'm actually lost I'm earning

a lot of money now but I'm actually lost

I I don't enjoy my job um we all have

our own criterias when it comes to this

what would you what practical thing

would you ask them to do to try to find

that that ideal career personally for

you if you were to advise somebody I I

often share my story as a reference

point yeah then of course then I ask

questions further yeah I mean okay first

of all people usually approach us

because they they know us right M yeah

uh so I I want to respect their time and

I say okay this is my journey it may not

be your journey but you know as as a

reference point so I realized that uh

just not just to continue my story right

I have to ask myself like oh I haven't

sh I lost my job yeah so I lost my job

right 2013 I got retrenched I got

replaced so your project of being

Irreplaceable really resonates with me

right and then that year which was my

worst year ever was also my best year

ever because that year I got to reflect

about my identity like he okay now that

I've lost my job so what really as an

individual what really do I want you

know and now I have no more HR

department I cannot say oh HR didn't

develop me no nothing of course I can

blame government but let's not go there

so I decided okay I better go for

coaching right so at the time I was not

a coach yet but I engaged coaches and

then they asked very good ful questions

like what you you just did right the

people manager oriented kind of

questions and then I started reflecting

deep within my life and what spar's joy

in me you know what gives me a sense of

purpose which actually is a little bit

different from what spark Joy you know I

can play guitar and Spark Joy but does

it give me a sense of purpose maybe

maybe not right yeah and then of course

I have three children so uh what what

sparks Joy gives me a sense of purpose

and can keep my family intact I don't

want them to like financially at least

financially I mean not millionaire or

anything but you know if they can go to

school they can go for Holiday once or

twice you things like that very

practical concerns yeah but at the same

time I want to grow right so that's

another thing I asked myself so after

thinking thinking taking all the box I

decided okay let's embark on this thing

called

coaching so at a right o AG of

39 uh I started a brand new career of

coaching and again no HR no anything

it's just a coach ask me question and I

decided and I think at the end of life

is all about decision right or no no one

else can say Hey Eugene you made the

wrong decision to be a coach if only you

were a VP SVP EVP wow imagine your

family now can go to Princeton harbard

like sorry are they my children or your

children Al I have to ask Within Myself

of course my wife and I need to come to

a har harmonious decision yeah so to

answer your question in a more short way

is like I I think all of us uh whether

you're in a company out of a company

reflect really deeply these few things

like back to the criteria thing right

yeah yeah and then find some kind of

Confluence and make a decision because

there's no perfect decision you know if

let's say if you had stayed INE maybe

you know maybe you could have been a

leadership position and still impacted a

lot of life right so I I don't think

there's a right or wrong decision but we

need to decide at the end of the day but

we cannot be like floating for 6 years

saying like I want to leave no no no I

want to leave I think that person is

making a wrong decision by not making a

decision the global survey that I'm

running now on leaders people love I

have found that people want they they

care very much about the emotional

aspect so what makes them happy in a job

for example carrying

boss

empowered okay I remember very pragmatic

positive emotions yeah but I'm very

pragmatic I I'm tell I told I tell my

coaches don't choose a job because of

the boss because this boss might leave

anytime are you going to jump SHP

because the boss leaves right so trying

to expand your

personal um what do you call this

resource right uh ways in which you can

be So-Cal happy more fulfilled can you

put yourself out there to make more work

friends that work friends is one of the

criteria if growth being challenged then

can you put your hand out for jobs that

will stretch you if people don't know

you exist people don't know what you're

good at then the opportunities cannot

come right best opportunities are those

that come knocking on your door so the

personal branding part is extremely

important are you able to

articulate your value and what you want

to do right and I think soft skills too

soft skills we okay a lot of people at

work with they uncomfortable with

networking relationship however is your

most valuable currency and we need to

start that as young as possible but so

you can hide your little cubic yeah or

maybe maybe you work remotely you don't

meet anybody in office tough very tough

oh very tough you're hiding behind the

screen every day typing away so I say

get out there get to know people ask

them hey what do you what's what's the

most interesting thing happening in your

life right now and you will gain new

persectives and you will you will

realize that there are people who are

putting themselves out there and you

wonder what if I can be like them too

and that why is that one step I can take

immediately that will inch My Way

Forward help me inch forward so one of

my best

bosses so he he taught me this thing we

don't know when we are

heading it's like pushing a ball even if

you don't know just push it forward if

you know when your you're going you can

push one meter if you don't know BB 10

cm if you're completely clueless can we

at least Push It Forward by 1 mm as long

as we keep pushing and one day one day

as we keep thinking exploring absorbing

asking great questions the answer will

show itself this yeah I like the analogy

my analogy is similar but it's the

moving car moving car is easy to direct

stationary car you can't direct and I

think it's the same thing is what is

success success equates to preparation

uh plus opportunity and opportunity will

never come if you are not prepared right

so that's why people say like uh when

the student is ready your master appears

exactly but the student is ready but the

Masters are actually everywhere already

they've always been there and that's why

when the student is ready the master

appears and but the funny thing about it

is that for for a lot of people they

don't ask what they want they don't know

what they want they they're not sure

what to ask for so if a boss says ay

Jason you're very good in a in my mind

is like w I hate doing a Jason I think

you should do a and then I think you

should be promoted to a m most of the

people be like okay I trust my boss

because they don't know what to ask the

boss to say that actually B is something

I prefer yes we will just follow them

and I coach people to a point where they

are like wow they just keep going to

what other people say and they don't

have the internal Compass so one thing I

feel was that number one they don't even

ask a lot of singor they don't dare to

ask this right number two is that if

they ask they don't know what to ask

because they've been confused by

everybody else so personally for me when

we think I think about that is that they

need to ask um I I do in very binary and

there are things that energize you and

there are things that drain you right

energize would be things like okay you

can do Mar condo spar's Joy or task that

you look forward to and task that drain

you yeah yeah a very binary thing is

that you should ask for opportunities to

task that you look forward to and within

there is your strengths your passion

your a lot of things are inside there

but it's just like I don't know why I

like Excel but I want to go into Excel I

don't know why I like design but I want

to go in design because the Trap is that

if you are good at something but it

drains the heck out of you people still

see as a

strength yeah oh correct you zombie

fight yeah zombie fight that means

you're good at what were you good at

this the last time went to no before you

went to um you want you say you want

change and then you say you

want investor relations yeah so you want

to go investing relation but you were

good in the previous job yeah which is U

marketing yeah so the funny thing is

that it actually things that um the the

the myth that that one of the things

that I am trying to break is that you

can be good at damn good at something

but it drains the heck out of you that

is not your strength that is your

weakness or is a learned competency or

we call it just basically you learn it

you can do it

but it doesn't wake you up in the

morning we call it the burnout

skills SK that's very yeah so if let's

say you but a lot of times people

wouldn't know that that is actually

their B skill but then in resume they

keep writing it so you realize that at

the end of the day you keep getting the

same kind of job and you still feel

burnout because you are focusing too

much on your burnout skills so in

career-wise when we help them to sort

out their skills right we we help them

to identify which one is their

development skills which one are skills

that they they would you know be

energized to do things about it or which

are the skills that they are really so

goddamn good at it but they hate it like

hell yeah but but they always put a lot

of those in your resume or when they

peach or when they sell themselves or

they when they Market themselves and

they end up having to do the same Ro the

opportun using the same skills and they

are constantly burnout so we call it a

burnout I notice uh usually people who

go into specialist roles like

engineering accounting uh I happen to

meet some of them uh those are likely to

have that kind of burnout skills but

because if like General Degree like M

mescom I don't actually feel anything

wrong to switch out of uh mescom but for

them somehow they feel like I have spent

four years doing mechanical and what

what engineering you say you did I did

mechanical well you are like the one of

the rare people most of them is guys in

mean engineer right no no I think during

my generation that the ratio wasn't as

bad as to like one is to 10 maybe like

one is to four four Still Still Pharmacy

the other

way right right no but but I think like

for yours is that it actually doesn't

matter what job yeah because we all have

10 things we do engineer 10 things two

or three things energize you the rest

just kind of like you're okay and then

something I mean as an engineer there

are 10 things you do yeah that's true

that's true as engineer not only must I

talk to them I also must maybe there's a

presentation part I'm energized doing

the present

just as you askun damn what is if you if

you keep just asking for Burnout skills

more and more you will get more and then

it's worse this reminds me because let's

stop by engineering for all so Engineers

as they progress okay don't don't talk

about Junior one let's say 10 years 15

years as engineer they will be invited

to lead a team right at some point if

they are good yeah and then they a lot

of them come to me they start to ask

questions like hey but this is taking me

out of my engineering skills right yes

because every day 24 hours so when they

start to coach a team of 20 then they

feel a little bit guilty you know right

they they feel like hey Engineers are

very responsible

people yes so they feel like he wait

wait I'm no longer spending time on

engineering this is like talking to

people all the time they are now better

in coding or whatever than me and they

start to feel guilty and that's where

they need coaching and transition also

some of them who find Clarity will find

that hey this is the new me now identity

yeah right never mind about engineering

skills are outsourced to anywhere in the

world right I'm I'm no longer needed in

that space now with my age with my

experience time to be a people manager

not a profit manager but a people

manager right but that is another group

they will go to HR and say hey so sorry

yeah I don't want to manage 20 people

can I go back to my special role of

really doing calculation yeah and again

no right no wrong no right yeah so if it

that's their life then they do it

because some people are built to be

individual contributors they just want

to be people managers because the pay is

better that's the only reason why they

go there just like how do our go up

simply in school there's a specialist

role and there's a leadership role but

sometimes it's a leadership role that

the pay is big difference very big

difference I think the Fulfillment is

the biggest difference if you ask me so

building on what Eugene is saying

earlier when you get good enough in your

job as an individual contributor you get

promoted you are asked to lead teams uh

there's an engineer who came out with

this term called Peter's principal Peter

principal his last name is Peter meaning

when you get good you will get promoted

and when you get promoted the skills

needed for you to thrive at the next job

level will be different and that's why a

lot of people start doubting themselves

actually there's nothing wrong with you

you just don't have the skills yet yes

so questions to ask yourself how can you

put yourself in a zone of learning so

that you are supported to gain these

skills because if you don't gain the

skills you will get stuck yeah when you

get stuck that's where you at Peter's

plate meaning that's the terminal stage

of your career you will not Advance

further I what I'm finding is that

people when they start struggling

they want to give up so fear of failure

is a big theme in my work I'm sure in

Jason and all our work as

well I want to encourage people there's

no innovation if there are no failed

experiments y when I left when you left

when you started out your

entrepreneurship do we like flip tarot

cards and say confirm plus chop that we

will succeed I'm sure never yeah but I'm

kind of like I'm going to take a leap of

faith but it's not impulsive it's a

calculated move because you know what

you're capable of that gives you energy

to be resilient right uh there was one

thing I wanted to ask which was about um

bout skills burnout skills yes burnout

skills because now you say

self-awareness no what you're looking

for so another frame of reference is

don't wait to be told what you can do

yep you do not need permission when I

run workshops I'm sure you find this too

people W ask

question why don't we ask question in

the Asian side of the world it's very

difficult when you don't open your mouth

and ask question like we don't want to

sound stupid right and they're waiting

for that implicit permission in order to

like start breathing and start living

right so okay one of the the common

cases I see and I want to ask a man say

coming from psychology point of view

right what if somebody doesn't even know

that oh I utterly hate this piece of

work L of awareness yeah it's like I I

it's like I I know I'm not happy but I

don't know

why and they don't know how to get

themselves out of it because that's all

they know keep doing this job keep doing

this job continue making themselves

miserable how do you snap them out of it

okay so first and foremost I'm not a

psychologist train I'm still learning

all right but I think um in counseling

side of things uh I believe is also very

similar to coaching uh we have that

fundamental belief that every one of us

will have that solution so even as a

coach we don't come across and we tell

you what to do you know we we we we have

discussion we have conversation and this

is the action plan so a coach is very

forward-looking right so from uh if

let's say someone is really so stuck I

think at the end of the day that you may

take a couple of sessions to break the

eyes to really get the person talking

and sharing it could be the past that is

hindering it could be something that he

or she is worried about that they

haven't have enough trust to talk about

it so I think there's no um at least

from my understanding there's no quick

fix to get someone to open up or to get

someone to quickly understand why they

are feeling what they are feeling but I

think one thing that is important is um

self-awareness is important but I also

think that self-acceptance is very must

go hand in hand I can be aware but I

don't want to accept it yeah that is

really very bad so it could be a point

where in let's say talking about career

I see that you are promoted to a

people's leader I know that I hate to

manage people but I still compare you

know and I and and I I think if I don't

get a people leader I'm a failure so

your success reflects my failure so

there is that kind of notion sometimes

in society so it's important for us to

be aware that yes I don't want to be a

people leader and that's fine and I

accept that I don't want to be a people

leader so there's no need for comparison

so there's no basis of comparison and

then I go and figure out where else is

my strength and where else is my skills

but I think in today's context because

we are all moving so fast we don't have

that space to sit down and like okay I

know this is what I I'm aware of this

but I don't want to accept it or I'm

trying to fight it so I find that that a

lot of people are resisting it also yeah

which is which is very ironic right so

you talk about self-awareness but the

next part is self acceptance you accept

that this is who you are and then you

can grow from there but a lot of people

try to change themselves that this is

not who I am CLE yeah they keep going in

C so that could be one of the reason why

people feel stuck as well because they

are comparing Apple to Orange and

there's no basis of comparison so one of

the things that I always ask my clients

not to do is don't compare yeah if you

really want to compare then you need to

ask yourself is the result that someone

else is getting is it what I want if

it's not why I want then what the hell

do you compare in the first place if

it's what you want then a healthy

question to ask will be what he or she

is doing whether that method is it

something that I can modify and

Implement in my own world that makes

sense to me right if let's say I have no

kids I cannot expect a mom with three

kids to work the way I work it won't be

fair right so I I think I think there's

too much comparison without a lot of

thinking like what makes sense and what

really will work for me and we don't

even know right that subtle very

subtle the Facebook friends that you

scroll and he like I cannot understand

the digital well digital Wellness yeah

you got to cleanse your social media you

know while so two as as a mentor is

talking I have all these funny images in

my head I must share them so I think

first if life were a game of Chess all

about our strategies

maximizing are you the pawn are you the

chance piece or are you the chance

Master wow second image was if life were

a report card if you have a report card

for Life who is grading you and if if

you say your happiness in life is

because somebody checks the boxes and

gives you A1 oh

99.9% then you have a successful life

okay fine so be it but most of the time

we don't want to make ourselves

miserable right I we have to get to a

stage where we accept that this is me

this is who I am this is the path I

choose for myself and that's okay and

that's okay and what matters most is

that I am happy can not in a selfish

sense I believe if you are happy it's a

contentment sentor it's at peace you are

in peace you at peace with yourself

correct correct and I'm sure your family

your loved ones will find you a joy toad

when you are happy person actually on

top of just like you mentioned that

people fear of failures I think people

fear of success as well it's a different

perspective oh no I think I'm going to

cry does this C does this C by Mar

Williamson would she say something like

that yeah yeah we what we fear most is

not that we have Darkness what we fear

is the light in all of us what if I

become successful translate translate I

don't understand I must find the

thing

understanding people fear failure we

understand why rejection disappoint why

why people fear success is also because

you know right right now common people

will say like rich people is so and so

and so you know there's certain stigma

and stereotype yeah if I become BMW

drivers yeah BMW driver most drivers A

drivers these

two the pipel Tesla Tesla is a something

Mal function ble the B you see so few of

them it's the BM drivers say don't

stereotypes so one thing is one one part

of uh a group of people they may feel

success is also because if I become

successful subconsciously when I become

successful maybe I will be judged by the

people I love most that could be one if

I become successful maybe I will lose

the kind of relationship if I become

successful I will lose certain Freedom

if I if I if I become successful means

to say I need to put in so much so much

so much so much effort so it's a very

subconscious thing that people don't

talk about so I I wrote it in one of my

article yes generally we don't like

failure but we also feel success so so

that's why maybe sometimes in coaching

we say some people are self-sabotaging

yeah yeah because you your your your

whatever limiting beliefs and and what's

not is holding you back yeah so so

that's the part if you are embracing

success you understand what does success

mean and what can success do to you and

the larger commun or even your love on

just your family

then maybe that perspective is different

I just want to be the same with everyone

you know I don't want to be that that

that one you want to be the one that

sticks sticks

out the

Chinese I was going to

Sayes translate

okay so it's the same tension in the

workplace as well okay what it means is

when we are in a team we want to stand

out we don't want to stand out we want

to stand out that's uh yearning to want

to stand out but once we stand out we

want to confirm mhm so it's that state

of constant discomfort do I want to be

different and unique or do I want to be

accepted and be like everyone be like

everyone else so for work places it is

the same it's a shugg we have to cater

to people at different stages one day

they want career Mobility next day I

just want to have stability get good in

my job and just continue this path

suddenly I will change my mind

completely normal so we have to build

the organization such that it is agile

flexible a lot of moving parts and we

are able to reconfigure very quickly

yeah I I uh just this past week I was

talking to someone about this uh

basically in every organization there

should be five kinds of people if you if

you hire correctly yeah uh this is the

musos hierarchy yeah but I just reframe

it so at a very low level there are

people who are just earning a living

there's completely nothing wrong with

that right you don't need like w 20,000

employees or one self actualization in

fact in fact it brings a lot of

disharmony to the organization right you

need people to really do their job 6:00

go back like receptionist like what what

self actualization do you want but can

you get rid of the receptionist the

funny thing is that receptionist could

be very self actualized already yeah

they really enjoy doing yeah but in a

different way their priority after six

is their four kids yes yes so all six

kids

yeah I don't know someone with a elderly

mom who is sick and she from a very high

position became a receptionist for that

three years that she was thinking of

after that you know mom gone so went

back to Career L again so that that's

the low then the slightly Higher One

right is stability you know some people

uh they are not really about money

anymore but please don't like touch me

right don't ask me to do Beach clean up

this CSR like I just I like my life very

nice you know very routine Tuesday I

like how you name all

the hey this kind company event please

don't ask me this kind of thing I just

do my job can don't ask me Saturday

morning come back I was the CCA guys so

I went around asking people then they

give me like Road eyes so I understand

okay you want stability I don't touch

you like and again nothing wrong with

that right then the category they love

community events right the social kind

of people and then can you imagine a

company with no birthday celebration no

promotion C they going like so so toxic

they even call it toxic so cold so cold

so so robotic clinical yeah so again

like as a people leader we recognize hey

this person actually likes you so he why

don't you rally us to have a bowling

whatever then on a higher level right

this is the success one actually I call

it the 5S I changed Mar's words a little

bit so this one is a little bit tricky

right because we just use the word

success in multiple ways just now so

this one really needs coaching in my

opinion right the first three level

actually you think about it no need

coaching yeah but this one where he's

feeling like I'm not feeling successful

and they compare this one really needs

coaching but we need to okay let's talk

about me so I used to compare a lot a

lot like wedding dinner you can imagine

exchange name card because we meet each

other Maybe once every 5 years know it's

class I like CF already how can I only

VP of course I wouldn't say that I was

like congratulations but I go home I I

really talk to my wife about it I say am

I have failure yeah then she say can you

stop going to wedding

dinners yeah but now no go wedding

Facebook already yeah yeah yeah last

time no no social media new condo no

just SC SCH score you you feel bad about

yourself he how can I only go to two

holidays per year all these people how

B yeah only JB vage

I so this this is the part I feel people

go in circles right because they I mean

me I let's say I I don't really know

what it means to be successful I thought

maybe SE sweet is successful maybe a

corner office is successful maybe buying

BM or Mercedes is successful I mean I'm

really talking about myself here no no

judgment and then I realized no no no no

wait after coaching these are not

successful success is really seeing

someone small you know seeing someone's

eyes light up I mean very Shen very

abstract kind of thing but inside me I

know hey I am now successful right I'm

playing a different game yes you are a

chief of efforts you are CEO but I am

impacting lives no so you are successful

I'm successful right it's not a zero

some game and then at the highest level

the S one is self actualization which we

talk about that one is not just

successful anymore but it's really like

am I living life fully yeah you know am

I really you know for those who believe

in God or Jedi force or something that

that that force that that God that de

you know am I pleasing him or her right

well that is another state all together

not not just success anymore yeah so we

as as people leader every organization

has this five but the challenge then is

like wow how do I adapt policy training

development so that all five feel like

he I I like this organization so that I

don't anyhow jump here jump there that

that's the challenge I believe that's

why soft skills being able to tell

stories to unpack you don't just unpack

for the sake of getting them to line up

you unpack your policy intent for the

purpose of educating people how to look

at the issue and to to appreciate the

policy or the new practice and that

that's one Gap as well I I see most of

my clients actually all the people they

all nice people there are some instances

where I may coach two sites two camps

and I know they on opposite sides of the

table actually they are not bad people

everyone's just trying to do their band

based on what they understand from the

context and we have not used stories to

unite to help them see eye to eye they

are looking at different Maps so they

can never come to agreement so yes 5S

exists how can the top leader or senior

leaders unpack the intention behind all

the policies in order to have this

imperfect balance of five five work five

generations in the workplace everybody

wants different things everybody is

different stages of sorting themselves

out understanding who they are and

that's okay we we we just need to

maintain that imbalance such that

everything is perfectly functional then

we can move forward this reminds me of a

rule that I only learned in the past

three years Platinum rule because since

young we learned Golden Rule right you

know treat others the way you want to be

treated that that's basic human uh

dignity and respect yeah but then what

you just said is like if five levels or

seven levels or whatever levels you know

can you communicate to people the way

they want to be communicated right that

that's Platinum Rule and it was like a

huge urea moment for me because I I am

the sort who wants success since since

young that's why I compare name cards

during but do my people right if I Le 20

people do they they might not yeah they

one might not then I feel frustrated

because I didn't know the Platinum room

I say like hey wake up you know grow

transform don't be so Le yeah why relax

relax

Corner chill right just go home have

dinner no some even reject promotion I

remember when I was working in a bank

and I was managing people people reject

promo like he you ungrateful

fool but actually they they have reached

a a kind of stability and Harmony right

so who am I to judge so I have to really

like why you say just now mindset shift

like hey wait a minute wait a minute

take Eugene out the picture m right talk

to this person the way this person wants

to uh be at yeah the level of Happiness

so this is a new Awakening for me yeah

if I measure Eugene in that 5S

definitely successful because when I

started he was the one who asked me some

tough questions to help me rethink how

should I enter the market and start

building my business because I had so

I've lost so much time I cannot wait

like another 10 years to figure out the

business world I needed like immed

immediate exponential growth and he

asked the questions he helped to reframe

how I see things that help me Focus my

effort in the right way and that's

definitely not like a BM a m that will

measure your success is the the impact

you have on people yeah so very

successful yeah I mean the best I mean

the also one one very good way if you

want to uh bring it down to a point in

your life is that just before you die

and that's always a very heavy point but

yet the clearest Point ever yes and at

the end of that and that point when you

look at it then what it was what was

most important in your career was the

most of the time is the impact and um

when so coming back and let's let's try

to land this plane now when we talk

about IDE career we talked about Seasons

um and we talked about different people

have different things it's almost like

ideal career is almost like you are

leading uh five different animals and

all their habitats are different and all

their wantes is different so I do I I

thought about this recently is that most

of the time we always think about the

three most important things in life

Health relationship well right you don't

have any of you don't have health you

forget about everything else so Health

was the most important when it comes to

this but then as we grow older I I feel

that even now the generation it's not

only Health relationship wealth but this

thing called joob as well that means

then for all these four it's all

different things and I give this analogy

that you only have 7 L of water and you

have these four plants where do you want

water you want water all in wealth then

you have no Health you have no

relationships you have no joy you have

in a job that sucks but you pay the most

so you have seven liters into that

everything else is dying yes but if you

want joy then maybe you need to have a

pay cut because you need to explore

first so I I take it in such a way that

depends on what you want in these four

things Health relationship wealth and

joy and sometimes people are very

fortunate that a they have joy and and

wealth and that's the pay that is their

passion and some people are not

fortunate or some people it's too

drastic a move to do that because

relationships their kids are young and

all that I cannot move anywhere yes and

I just have to stick there so

relationship has three liters wealth has

one liter and joy as nothing yeah I have

a alternative perspective to this I I

see wealth as an outcome so you still

have the 7 liter and you pour water into

relationships uh joy and health yeah I

mean reading books and watching videos

right A lot of people did not aim to be

wealthy like like Steve Jobs Bill Gates

and all that but they ended up being the

top 1% yeah and of course there are

exceptions H but I realized that if you

pursue something really with all your

heart and soul enjoy and the world

enjoys it of course they must enjoy even

like we talking about concert decay and

all that you know these people really

love singing you can see them really

pouring they heart and soul they're

perspiring but they enjoying themselves

they're not a job like I I have to sing

today for three hours no they enjoy it

and clearly the audience enjoy it that's

how we pay hundreds or thousands of

dollars and then the wealth is the

outcome to me so actually to in my

opinion we don't have to pour water in

the wealth I mean of course Financial

advisories would would argue

otherwi no but uh from my personal

experience as I pursue coaching instead

of investment banking yeah I realized

that actually now right now 2023 I'm

earning more than Investment Banking

back in those days yeah and I say wait a

minute I didn't even aim for that but it

was the outcome of pouring your heart

and so into something you love and then

of course you must be healthy that one

take for

granted totally agree um the the idea of

passion that we have or joy that we have

if you're not world class in it then

forget about anybody paying you but

the the thing about it also that um four

of us might be have have that fortune to

pursue something we are passionate about

most people might not yeah right and

they're stuck in somewhere and then it's

like maybe I can't yeah yeah any last

words for anybody else for me I think

it's a journey yeah I think uh when I

first started I have a couple of mentors

so they always will remind me of this

thing called delay gratification because

the space I grow in we want things

instantaneous right yeah so even you

start up you want to see results like

immediately if I don't get that that

that deal within like the first month I

I need to close business kind of thing

that's why I think when people see me

now whereby I have certain level of

flexibility and certain level of

autonomy it didn't it didn't happen to

me overnight it took me close to 10

years so when I 10 years ago I was still

in my 20s yeah and at 20s my friends are

posting all the nice IG photos of travel

in and I'm spending every penny

investing in myself that's why I think

it's important for us to realize that it

is a journey so if you want to talk

about self-care right since is such a

big word now I think part of self-care

is understanding that you are at your

own

race yeah that's one thing but I think

another thing is you you you need to put

in the hard work you cannot expect

things to fall on your lap so my

question to everyone will tell me I have

no time but my question is if you really

have that time what were you actually

doing we actually if you if I ask you to

plot out your daily time schedule for

one week two weeks or even a month I can

easily find a lot of pockets of time

whereby it's not well spent yeah so a

lot of people say oh I need to watch

Netflix to to to wind out I need to I

need to do this to wind out but actually

in today's context actual rest means

nothing of all this actual rest means

you go and sleep you don't you don't you

don't B watch and everything yeah so I

think at the end of the day I think we

all have time if you really want to

figure out what you really like to do

and if you do not know it at this point

in time then you need to spend some time

to invest to figure that out could be a

pro brono project could be a volunteer

work it could I think you mentioned some

I think I caught one of your podcast

what you did the five hours after your

work is very important I think 7 to 12 7

to 12 right yeah I ien hours you have

that so what do you actually do when you

really have those time so I think that

is very crucial yeah so if you want a

life that you desire you really have I I

don't come from a very very rich and

fortunate family so I believe in the

value of diligence and consistency yeah

unless you are born with connections and

everything then of course then your

starting ground is different but if you

are not then you working hard is a given

you have to work hard first yeah so

enjoy the journey I think it's still

important to enjoy the Journey yeah and

work with the right group of people I

think um working with mentors or coaches

is important yeah yeah yeah that's all

right yeah my Last Words My Last

Words uh I'm really have that joy for

learning I think get the priorities

right we don't learn so that we can get

promoted you learn something that gives

you Joy and when you learn something

that gives you Joy you get naturally so

good at it that wealth will

follow I think the the position the

angle must be correct we cannot do it

with that agenda I must do MBA so that I

get

promoted it doesn't happen is that

lifelong learning that truly learning

for the sake of exploring be learning

about yourself learning about subject

matter learning about the

world it will enhance you and enrich you

as a person and that's why when wealth

will naturally come to you because when

you are so good when you bring so much

value to the world everybody will want

to come and work with you yeah yeah

there's the this Jewish Propet the says

um show me a m uh show me somebody who

is a master of their craft and because

he will be before Kings so only if

you're the best of the best and world

class at something that you do and it

could be things that you are really

passionate about then you are very

fortunate it could be things that maybe

you learn it along the way and then you

are still fortunate because you mastered

it in such a way uh it will bring you

and it will bring you that that wealth

which is important also in the work that

we do thank you everyone for your time

today I really enjoyed this discussion

is really a coffee shop talk kind of

really enjoy it there no coffee that's

all just no coffee just water right

water is healthier yeah agree agree so

thank you so much guys thank

you

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