TRANSCRIPT

Becoming a Dancer - Lee Mun Wai | The CJH Podcast EP20

*Captions are taken directly from YouTube and may not be 100% accurate

[Music]

alright welcome everybody today

we have mark wee in the house thank you

for being here thank you thank you for

having me thanks thanks uh okay I know

this guy for extremely long I'll share

later on a little bit about him Lee man

is a choreographer and Dancer who works

independently between Berlin and

Singapore yeah in 2021

right he completed his Master's

choreography and performance degree

program at the Institute of Applied

theater studies in gon uh Germany right

uh in 2014 he received the young artist

award from the national Arts Council of

Singapore and between

20008 to 2015 he was a founding member

as well as the full-time dancer of th

Dance Company currently one of

Singapore's most well-known contemporary

dance companies currently he has been

performing regularly between Germany and

Singapore so welcome again thank you I

am curious about this whole idea of

people especially in the Arts trying to

figure out how they can convert that

passion into something sustainable so

take us back when um you first kind of

got introduced to this whole idea of

like performance or the Arts what was

the earliest memory um I think the

earliest memory I

had actually I the earliest memory I had

was uh was all I was just creative from

a very young age um if you really talk

about concrete memories um I

remembered uh being in the drama club in

primary school and doing Oliver the

musical in acps M uh Ango Chinese

primary school we were in the same

school yeah um and uh and then after

that in secondary school I was in the

Chinese

Orchestra and I would dable in

photography in my own time so these okay

so and I was in the choir and again in

drama club in in in in junior college so

what I'm trying to the picture I'm

trying to build here is that it's always

been uh creative so I it's interesting

when people ask me when was the when was

the point where I knew I think I just I

didn't have a point I was just

constantly delving into creative uh

activities and creative Endeavors and

every time I went into such an ever I I

felt that that was how I expressed

myself most clearly and how I understood

myself uh best so yeah if you okay so in

during primary school when you wanted to

join drama and all that yeah what made

you want to join because there so many

other ccas well you know we had those

blue um science cards and then we could

you know there was like one for botany

one for astronomy one for yeah yeah yeah

so we used to do that and then I would

try my best but I always got halfway and

then like then the blue cards just sat

on the shelves but then but then uh in

in instances instances where I could

sing or dance or act it would it just

like it

came without thinking and then I assumed

the role or the position or I I went

into the activity and it just felt like

a very well oiled machine so I guess

maybe the fact that you don't ask

yourself why you know that would be like

you know the best cause of action for

one person because maybe the why why

represents doubt right and why

represents a pulling back and why

represents when on when someone asks the

question why it necessitates a slowing

down uh and sometimes uh when you when

we coming if you're asking me this

question then I would kind of suggest I

would kind of like say the fact that you

don't ask why is actually maybe yeah

that's how you you know you know that's

the thing for you right interesting you

you share this when when I do like

workshops and I ask people like who here

is a numbers person who he is not they

instinctively know that they are a

numbers person or a non-numbers person

and I also ask the question why as a way

of trying to let them understand that

there is no why it's almost like it is a

it is a feeling that you have that it's

almost like an eagle that just

flies that that you don't know why it

happens but so there's there's that

innate wiring that I'm so fascinated

about human beings that that innate

wiring nobody knows like I have a

brother is different from me totally

different right I have kids that's

different and that innate wiring that is

inside them somehow needs to come out

the issue is that um not everybody has

the opportunity to actually show that so

if you you were in drama but before

drama um what what do you do that like

kind of people say that hey my wife you

are actually quite good at singing or

dancing or or or or drawing anybody gave

you the affirmation so that you get that

confidence because as kids if you don't

have that affirmation sometimes you be

like normal eh my parents I think uh

especially my mom she was quite so okay

so I'm very very very lucky my

parents

uh brought me up without all

the you know all the the typical

conventional stresses that we hear about

you know I was never told to you know

come home with an A+ or don't come home

you no mean like of course no that's

very exaggerated no it wasn't

exaggerated I remember there were in

primary school there were some people

who were like literally like complaining

that their mothers would be angry with

them because they got 92 out of 100 this

time as opposed to 95 of out of 100 and

at the time I was like okay I I don't

know what's your beef but like okay I'm

not talking to you this psychotic yeah

but it'll be can and there'll be like

everything like there will be

repercussions yeah so I was not there I

I I I think maybe it is it is this this

with regards to this question I think

I've got my context to thank and my

context would be my parents because my

mom would gently or like my mom and my

dad would gently ask me to try every

activity and I would Grumble at some of

them we used to do these nature walks at

mrii Park yes as a family yeah

mhm I didn't really enjoy them oh my mom

my parents are like no let's just do it

and I'm like okay fine you know and then

we did it and then and then after that

we would do other things and then then

we I would much prefer like the times he

went to East Coast Parks because East

Coast Park because that would entail

cycling so you know there was already

these kinds of like I prefer cycling

over walking and and then after that um

when we started to go to school my mom

did say do you want to try this do you

want to try that you know as much as she

could you know probably afford it

because because now when I'm thinking

about it you know in order to ask me

that question she must have had been

able to afford it at the time you about

enrichment programs yeah things like

that

so well and this one is still my biggest

regret in life she did once ask me to

learn if I wanted to learn the piano and

then I said no that's if you if you're

going to come to the question regrets I

might answer it now that's my only

regret in life so far that I didn't

learn the piano because I really like

the instrument right now and anyway yeah

um but so it was a lot of this like

asking

like if I want if I would be interested

in this but she left me the the space to

say yes or no and then only when I said

yes she would you know she would enroll

me in these courses so then it became

Chinese speech and drama also because I

was really bad in Chinese so she was

like maybe that's a bit a creative way

to improve my Chinese uh it it was

French and then IND did French for six

years things like that okay right so

it's the context and I was allowed as a

kid to explore

uh my interests without without being

told this is a waste of time this won't

get you anywhere how does this benefit

into your GPA you know I I was never

told such things interesting because the

normal usual Singaporean parent that is

their duty is to ensure that the kid

Aces the exam because if I don't know

what as a parent if I don't know what

that boy my my kids passion is to try to

get them to set them up for Success the

first gate is scoring well in exams cuz

I don't know what they're going to do

but you better score 99 compared to like

50 yeah so there's repercussions if you

don't so parents just push it correct

and that's the normal so when you have

that that parents that actually allowed

you to open up and try different things

and not not be worried about academics I

find it very interesting because like

then if the the assumption would then be

that you were actually a good student

and you didn't need that issues that

where people were failing and all that

because I don't remember you as being a

bad bad student but I was never at the

top yeah but you you coasted by yeah I

coasted well I mean yeah I was a b i was

a I was a three B and one a minus

student okay so all right didn't do very

well my psle so okay yeah that's why

both

buck

another discussion for another

discussion for another

day yeah so um I'm curious about so when

you now have been exposed to so many

different things in the Arts and I

believe that sometimes the interest that

we have could be photography that you

mentioned could be drawing uh could be

dance and all that what made you focus

more on one okay if if okay

so I've answered this question many

times and I don't see any other way how

I can answer this I think at the time

okay so I wanted to do fashion design

but then I started sketching and I had I

had like about three or four

sketchbooks uh and I was wa this is in

Primary School secondary Secondary

School okay like the like the self the

self-actualization or or like the the

the ability to start making decisions

for

oneself with regards to a future that I

knew I had to somehow shape or align

yeah this Co this cogn this cognisance

happened in um in in secondary school

okay so you started sketching yeah like

I started sketching in lower Secondary

School um but then I started realizing

comparing you know like you know these

sketches that my friends would do or

like comparing it to like you know these

sketchbooks I for example I I knew for a

fact that I I couldn't get proportion

right right and then photography was too

expensive because then it constantly

required equipment and I was very

impatient as a person so things like

even though I was in the Chinese

Orchestra and I was doing quite well

with music and everything um I didn't I

could not wait to learn how to use

another you know like a pencil or a

paintbrush or or or an instrument a

music instrument before I could express

myself so then I quickly thought okay

too

expensive okay no patience to like

transfer creativity through another

medium then use my body so it was either

acting already then I okay so then it's

acting and dance and somehow at that

time I have I still I still do have this

strange relationship to

discipline um I felt that it would be

interesting to try dance

because there was a way that my I could

like discipline my my body which I find

now I'm trying to understand why I use

such a strong

word but that's another conversation for

another day suffice it to say when

answering this question then that's why

I came to dance because I felt like

dance made me number one use my body

immediately as a medium of expression I

didn't have to do it through pain or I

didn't have to like oh what do I do now

I need to buy a canvas you know like I

have my body and my two hands I'll just

start you know dancing now okay right

and then that that's one it's uh the

medium is immediate it was my own body

and then number two it offered a certain

sense of discipline and for some reason

I do enjoy or I do value this you know

this um relationship when creativity is

also bounded by a

certain uh dedication clear dedication

and commitment to a craft or a system of

doing things mhmh yeah when you talk

about discipline you're talking about

the the um the aspect of dance or you're

talking about the rigor of uh I need to

show up from 9:00 a.m. to 10:00 p.m.

that's all part of it right everything

yeah I mean if you turn up late for half

an hour late for dance class you just

basically won't get anything out of it

and most of the time the teacher doesn't

let you come in anywhere okay you're not

allowed while during my time I don't

know you not allowed into the dance

class okay into a dance class like if

you are like 15 minutes late because you

would have gone through two or three

exercises already and then your body is

just not ready right so or everybody

would just give you the death St and

then you be like really sad in the

corner give me a timeline where um you

you started to switch from all the other

mediums to focus on that dance was it JC

after JC University what was it it was

in J2 because in J2 J2 you were in drama

correct yeah and I was in the youth

Flying Club for what because it I mean

doesn't isn't it great to fly a plane

that's amazing but then acjc was really

unsupportive of it so they only allow me

to like they only allow me to um yeah

and our form teacher right we went no

you in okay so my f teacher my f I'm

studing sorry I'm studing to lose all

this like who is in my class my f

teacher is very unsupportive so then she

said uh okay you can only uh uh leave

school and Miss afternoon lectures on

these days uh to to to go to airport

yeah and the stupid thing is when you

fly a piper Warrior you don't fly by

instrument you fly by visuals and what

happens in the afternoon in Singapore

there's just basically rain cloud build

up so I will arrive and it will either

be raining or they will call Cat one

because of thunder and lightning and

everything and I couldn't I couldn't fly

so a lot of times it was just canceled

cut long story short I made my first

solo went one round around the airport

in the plane and then that was it I

couldn't complete um the entire course

to get my private license private

pilot's license and then after there I

changed right wait wa wait so what

you're saying is that in J2 you pursued

something different which is

flying yeah I mean there was I mean not

narrow out of nowhere no I mean yeah

because my mom said hey uh you can do

you flying club it's free let's go do it

because why is it free you didn't know

me it was free yeah but you had to go

for like I forgot what the process was

but yeah it was it okay so you did that

because your mom gave introduced you to

it but do you have no no I mean both of

us I knew that it existed and I was

talking to my mom about it and then she

was like yeah let's go man because

usually private Flying Club membership

totally unaffordable yeah so you're

doing that uh was that uh just okay I

just want to try it out or was it like

you in a different Multiverse you would

have been a pilot no try it out oh just

try out okay well I was trying to be a

pilot but that was because I was trying

to prove to myself that I was not gay so

I was trying to I was doing one of these

things that a lot of gay people do like

to like choose the manliest job and try

to beat it so yeah why is pilot the

manliest

job

well

I mean is it not I mean yeah quite manly

L but like yeah I mean I'll say like

construction is more manly yeah but that

okay okay okay so not good for the skin

so right coming back then the dance part

where where did you um start to find

that okay this is it and um what was it

in uh JC uh drama class okay okay so in

junior college year two we did Fame the

musical yes

same and it's like okay yeah

[Laughter]

anyway so sing so there I'm I I didn't

really sing because I auditioned for the

singing parts and I didn't get it so

then I acted and I danced and I was

lucky enough to get a main to be casted

in the lead role so then I and I was

also lucky enough to be in most of the

dancers and in that particular musical I

had the opportunity to really feel both

out and then I thought after I did it

after we finished and after a levels I

decided no that really left the very

deep impression and I think yeah dance

dance would be it right so when you were

training and all that um well dance

would be it as but at that point or so I

was still um still succumbing to the

typical pressure of like going to n us

because I was lucky enough to be

reserved this place okay what cost was

that but maybe they comes out in another

question we can also no it's okay we can

go on so so you could have just carried

on so I no wait stop so

okay no I got into science General

Science and then um yeah I didn't enjoy

NS but actually thank God for it because

walking around doing nothing in a fake

Jung in the fake jungles of like

Singapore and pong made me realize make

me give me a lot of time to think so I

did a lot of thinking in NS you know

like in Field cam when you're looking at

the stars and waiting for some ID to sh

contact we both supp arms I remember

yeah well no at the time I was a

sergeant can excuse you so I was

literally waiting for some [ __ ] to sh

contact and thunder flesh and I'm like

okay this is so

lame then then they be like H is it

really science so then I thought no so

after the first year of the

matriculation cycle and at the time was

two and a half right I sent in a letter

and told n us you know what I think it's

not science I think it's arts and so and

I was I was confident I will get it

because I'm basically in terms of like

popularity and how many points you need

to get in right USS and soci is a little

bit lower than science and of course I

got it right had another year went

through a lot of few camps again and I

thought is it really arts and social

science or is it art that I wanted to do

then finally I said I I wrote I I made

this decision some somewhere you know

and I don't know I couldn't remember if

it's a particular camp or a particular

night but at some point I realized no

it's not arts and soy it's not academic

University I want to go to I want to do

art and I want to be a creative for as

long as I can possibly be and I want

yeah I want it to be my profession right

and then after when when the second year

of matriculation came just as we were

about to finish oring and all that uh I

wrote to n n us and said you know what

keep this place for someone who actually

wants it I don't want it and I don't

want to waste the spot so then after

that then I went for auditions at lassal

okay so you see how like like in JC it

was like I know it was dance and then

after JC the time the fellow kind of

like the fellow period of like you know

for any Singapore for most Singapore me

doing NS then that's the time to think

yeah which then also brings us back to

this idea of giving time to oneself

which we will address later on with like

techniques and all that I think some of

the questions you know like the the time

to sit down and really go is this really

what I want mhm right the big questions

that that made me realize yeah it's not

and then it gave me me the time the time

gave me

this opportunity to really hone in on

what it was I want and then I just went

for it yeah so you chose arts in lell

dance I went to audition for dance

specifically dance already straight away

you so from JC you kind of had that

impression after of all the things you

did you did singing and dancing yeah

then I was doing like a bit of like

night classes because I managed to get

book out after being an officer I

managed to get a post as book out oh

okay that's good well done W I didn't

man and so you did night classes in

dance and that was your first

professional outside of JC professional

kind of training my first serious for

into yes I would say yes okay before

that it was all just Hobby and uh School

ECA yeah so when you chose that dance so

I I believe that um there are few layers

when it comes to Um passion first right

so we started with passion and I'll

explain what passion is later on my my

my thinking of passion um the only way

that you can be good at a passion is

that you put in uh investment and effort

totally and then that becomes

performance because nobody pays for non

performance people pay for world-class

performance and if you don't have

performance you're just a hobby and you

have no Excellence it doesn't exude that

Excellence inside and nobody wants to

watch something that's not excellent we

want to see a painting that's excellent

we want to see a car that's built

excellent we want to see a a building

that's excellent so there is training to

get there

then after training then we get this

thing called pay that means the market

will tell you that you are worthy to be

paid for that right for performance do

you kind of think about okay I want to

go to the best school in Singapore uh

that means at night classes or was it

like kind of just random any performance

I just want to I just want to immerse

myself in

Dance I

mean I

mean there's a lot to unpack in what you

just said right but and and how how you

um you you we we posit the fact that one

can be so sure of something that one

immediately HS in on the correct School

the correct teacher the correct course I

don't think most of the time it operates

like that try and er most of the time

correct of course we're not dumb we do

our I think every every passion done

followed correctly requires a a

huge amount of consistent research and

and and knowing who to ask and all that

but but yeah at the

time at the time it was also more about

trying out every single thing you know

and and as much as I could my resources

could afford me to and

uh uh and I was telling myself look

you're already starting from zero I mean

anything you learn is anything you learn

is already new information that will be

valuable to you right so actually it's

always nice to start from zero zero M

because anything becomes value and yeah

anything there's growth there's growth

if your seed anything above is up

correct so so so you you kind of like

chose a random school yeah I did Jazz

classes um I went to I I wanted to find

out what modern dance would be like so I

went to this company called

Eed uh which in in the history of um in

the contemporary history of Singapore

modern dance and cont Dan is one of the

was one of the more um active um

companies in the 80s and 90s right it

was run by Haun and and Lim Haun and

[ __ ] forgot part I forgot their partner

two people yeah one of one of which was

Haun yeah Haun and chinat sorry

chin Haun and chinat uh and um that was

your first contemporary dance you did

Jazz before and then after that I did

Jazz ballet with Singapore dance theater

then I was at attitude dance studio with

Donato F in btim Plaza so you see like

you just exploring like like the ecology

you

and never that one one thing you to you

know the truth you always need to have

like a lot right to understand to

understand position and and community

and the Ecology of things right and then

how then how you position yourself in it

I believe that um like when we go and

explore careers it's almost like those

doors that we close can only be closed

because we opened it first correct yeah

so if you never open that door you will

never know so ker for me the analogy I

usually have is the food tasting you as

you grow older you taste more food you

know what you like and what you don't

like but you will never know until you

taste it for a short period of time

correct and once you know that okay so

for you that jazz and doing all these

things after a while you kind of know

that this is where um everything kind of

like focused on there was um it was

almost like there was a fire that won't

go

away what what made you kind of like the

side of all the things it would be this

contemporary right

um yeah um I think okay so I

mean what I guess maybe it's also a

combination of like understanding your

the realities of the situation doing my

research I realized um the world of

ballet is very much uh a European world

uh Europeans first uh and then all other

races unfortunately even still up to

today um they would not like to believe

it but come on it's very clear um one

two um even though everybody goes oh

yeah you know like B is the is the

epitome is The

Benchmark I'm like [ __ ] the [ __ ] like I

will Benchmark myself like I think and I

think this attitude also helped me a lot

um that that you set your own

benchmarks uh and then number three also

understanding you know like when you

follow a passion you also need to

understand your realities I was already

21 entering NS and then

23 any sort of preliminary research you

do into let's say the ballet will make

you realize that their Superstars Peak

at 22 oh

okay I haven't even done my first tondue

at 22 so you know yeah what's a tondo a

tondu is the the most basic like

movement where you brush your feet from

from a standing

just slightly to the front so that's the

basic yeah so you know you you know you

know so you're late late to the game

yeah so why bother why bother chasing

you know hanging out with that club you

know like I mean there are many other

clubs you know so so then whittling it

down and then realizing that

contemporary dance was uh a dance form

that

afforded uh people to

enter with various physicalities with

various body types only because

contemporary dance also uh prioritizes a

lot of other things other than just an A

young athletic physical body so that was

also a balance of uh real of my real my

you know the situation my realities I

think that's important also when we talk

about passion yeah that we don't

constantly keep banging our okay so I

remember I music was a very big

influence and I remember reading in a

Rolling Stones Magazine interview when

they interviewed Tori Amos um really I

don't know for those who don't know who

Tor Amos is she was huge during our time

in the '90s as in what we used to call

alternative music oh God I'm totally

dating myself right now um um and uh she

was most famous for playing very you

know writing very powerful songs and

using the piano instead of the guitar

and then she was always constantly

hounded by these male interviewers and

in saying how did you do it at that time

where you know everything was going in

the favor of Pearl Jam Nana Stone Temple

Pilots right basically men with guitars

Cypress Hill and how did you do as a

woman with a piano and she said

sometimes instead of constantly knocking

at the door or banging your head against

the wall you melt like butter and seep

in from underneath the cracks of the

door mhm that was very enlightening to

me like when she said that you know

there's more than one way to get to the

other sign right stop doing this you

know stand back use your brains and

realize that there's another way right

so yeah okay so so that was that that

wall or that wall was like ballet Jazz

and all the rest and then you kind of

went into contemporary yeah and um take

me then after you kind of like dabbled

in all after NS you went to do dance in

lell yeah and you did that for how long

I did I finished up the diploma program

for three years and then I continued uh

for two years at the Hong Kong academy

for performing arts uh that was two

years to complete the ba so I got my BA

in contemp dance in Hong Kong right and

then you were still uh on the site were

you performing on the site uh yeah a

little bit right but site hustle I mean

I did I I I wanted to focus on my

studies so yeah okay okay and studies

were full-time right what would you say

to somebody if they say that I don't

need to go to school I'll just be

mentored by a

master do you have to C to get the

mentor okay do you know which Mentor

will get you and are you ready to be to

only have a singular vision from one

person right okay okay just the first

three of an iceberg of questions you

need to ask yourself look I'm not saying

this to discourage anyone I just I'm

just saying that like since we're

talking about like passion and all that

and 20 years

into know doing my

passion uh at some point all I'm trying

to say is we make these decisions and

these decisions open certain spaces and

close certain spaces for the time being

nothing is ever closed forever and you

are sent into this decision and and then

you are left in this decision to

negotiate what it brings to you MH so

there's no wrong or right everybody but

you know when we make our informed

decisions at any point of time in Life

or at any stage of whatever we are

talking about a career a life choice we

just need to

accept generously what this thing brings

and then we negotiate so yeah so it's

not wrong right it's not wrong the the

interesting not only in art but school

also has problems yeah yeah we call it

on job training so a lot of times like

um whatever your degree is most people

don't follow what their degree is they

go to a company and then they just on

the job training they train what they're

supposed to do and then they get it done

um art sometimes when we think about

artists like for example songwriters

guitarists and all that sometimes they

you think about they train TR under who

they just randomly train or picked it up

so sometimes when I when I think about

art there seems to be for some parts of

art um the barrier is lower where you

can actually kind of like pick it up on

your own you don't need to learn from

somebody you learn from YouTube and all

that would you say to somebody who's

trying to go into like dance that that

is possible I I think I think there's a

danger in making these like these uh

assumptions that art we we actually look

I think so we we to really hit the thing

on the on the on the head in like I I

think it's it's not so valuable to speak

like that because even in art uh as as

it is as it is with a lot of other

Industries there are there are the

institutions that uphold their standards

you know their standards and their

history like a Fortress and they do the

same thing to you they give you this

snooty no and they're like who are you

who are you associated with have you

trained in my school for 20 years you

haven't [ __ ]

off and then and then you're left to

deal with yourself and then you know in

in the art scene also there there are

the Freelancers people like me people

who try to upend this sort of like this

sort of attitudes and people and and we

also have to fight for this space so in

in the art in the Arts we also face the

same problems of like oh uh oh you're

not an institutionally trained oh did

you graduate from juliard in New York oh

sorry I shouldn't be talking to you you

will not get there are people there are

[ __ ] like that and then they try to

operate in that way you know they

connect themselves to the to the the

best museums and they branding and

standard they brown nose their way all

the way up right and if that's if that

floats there boat go ahead but there

also then others you know who who also

try to move in other directions and

swing other ways independent yeah so

what I'm trying to say here is just like

in any industry the art well yeah the

art ecology also has its same very

similar

complications I mean

look everything that we operate now

these are exactly the people who gave

you know like the technological

institutions the middle finger and then

the whole of Silicon Valley was started

with with people with just Plano

aspirations and people who said [ __ ] to

Harvard [ __ ] off to Harvard and Cornell

and you know the IV leagues right they

had the opportunity to go they went in

they quit yeah so it's we all seeing the

same thing here right there these kind

of like many ways to do certain things

and I think it's the same in art and I

think uh when we make the jump also in

into into following our passions we also

need to understand that when we enter

let's say the art scene you will be

facing very similar situations and then

maybe the things you've learned from you

know where you are jumping from would

also help you make clearer decisions

when you finally shift to the passion

that you want to do for example yeah

it's not that suddenly like when you

jump into like the space of your passion

like there'll be no more there'll be no

more barriers there'll be no more

[ __ ] to deal with it will all just

be green lights forget it no it's um

sometimes even more red lights there

there there is always that fight of um

same thing for mnc's uh uh the John in

accounting needs to fight for his

promotion and all that right and there's

Sally also in accounting but Sally is

more visible and and she gets it and

John doesn't get it so these it's not

the craft it is the know how to navigate

and that's the second part and everybody

needs to go through that uh there is a

Craft part where you're good at it but

do people know you do they do you know

them and that that navigation of some

people call it visibility some people

call it network but it's a huge

navigation where it's not just the craft

it's how for sure you you navigate

yourself in the industry I was asking

about so if I were to make it very

simplistic like you know as a songwriter

somebody can like me and Mark can just

write songs and for you yeah yeah was we

were 100 of songs and we were just

buking on the streets of a but there was

no formal training that was required to

do that and I and as you're sharing that

it's almost like formal training for for

let's say dance helps you to be exposed

to many different ways in the fastest

shortest period of time in the most

structured way of learning correct right

one would say that yes yeah and and that

is beneficial to say that okay I want to

be able to explore these but for a

songwriter they probably can go to a

songwriting school if there is one but a

lot of times that that part of art is

like they just selft trained they do it

themselves but we I could also argue

that you could go into the yongo music

Music Conservatory and just do your like

fiddle your violin and then write songs

too it's the same nobody teaches you how

to choreograph okay okay right nobody

teaches you that there is this when you

talk about songwriting then the parallel

here will be like when you choreograph

your your dance you know like nobody

well yeah there is choreography module

yeah most of the time it's about just

sitting down and

discussing each other's likes and

dislikes or or like okay fine then we

you know we talk about okay there were

these movements and this was how this

famous choreographer did it at that time

you know in in the New York in New York

in the

1960s this was the trend and for most

postmodern dancers and then there was

this European Trend you talk but that in

the end you don't actually do it no one

says to get the perfect dance you take

three steps to the left open your arms

scream Hallelujah yeah and and and then

you will definitely right have a winning

thing no one says that yeah same thing

right yeah and you you go to the best

Music Conservatory

you you're on your piano like like 3

hours a day five hours a day but then in

the end when you if you want to go into

songw writing maybe you do a of songw

writing class yeah you learned how

bethoven did

how but in the end it's you and yeah no

one teaches you how to write a song yep

y y and right then that comes to this

whole idea of talent some people are

just more talented than the rest and

talent it's almost the Catalyst of um

performance so we give you an example if

somebody's very talented in dance uh

they are 100 they start off with 100

units compared to somebody who's not

talented is one but both put in 10,000

hours so 1 time 10,000 you only get

10,000 but because you are talented 100

time 10,000 you get a million yeah so

there's that there's also the aspect of

um not only in arts but in any career is

to figure out where you're talented in

where it flows more naturally nobody

will put me in a finance department I'll

just [ __ ] up the entire

account right right I know where I know

where my talent yeah so you're not

definitely no definitely not okay so

when when then after that so what

happened so after Hong Kong and all that

you you started to choreograph and

perform because there are two main

things that you do there's one is dance

and one is choreography right and uh

they seem quite similar but yet it's a

very different skill set the same thing

well yeah after like a actor and a and a

direct actor and a director at the same

time correct so in in after Hong Kong I

came back to Singapore and started uh I

was one of the founding members uh of T

dance company and over there I was

employed by the artistic director he

still is quick swe I'm I was employed

basically to be a dancer okay so it was

80 80% dancing 0 80% dancing and 20%

choreography okay and at that time we

were a small

company uh and I had to do every we had

to do everything so we were really

working monstrous hours I don't ever

think I will be able to return to give

me give me uh like what does it look I

had to teach part-time in the day uh and

in uh dance I to teach school I had to

teach dance in schools part time in the

day and then we didn't have a studio so

only when the schools finished using the

studios uh for their curriculums we

would occupy the Studios from 6:00 to

about 10:30 at night and then I would

dance then then te was those were really

the first few years and then after that

Swan was like you look good you dress

well you speak English well you do PR

and Communications and publicity and I

was like well thanks for not discussing

it with

me uh and all all of a sudden I was

thrust with that

responsibility uh yeah and you just went

because you believed in the dream I mean

I joined the company knowing that this

would not be a normal job that this

would be looking after a baby MH uh

because he said you know I was I he

wanted me as a founding member so I knew

I knew what this entailed right that it

wasn't going to be it would not be fair

on suun to to to have me say yes and

then have have me leave after 2 years so

I I said yes with a very

clear uh goal of staying for at least

five okay because I to myself I was

thinking wow to bring some to found to

found something yeah that's half a

decade right I stayed for seven okay

yeah um so what were you doing there

you're doing um you said 80% dance 20%

choreography and now you did PR

marketing and the first four years

before we found um someone to do it for

us we expect before we expanded the team

I was doing all PR Communications and

publicity and yeah press releases were

written by me and all that which just

yeah was horrible as a as a as a as it

was like you just didn't get any sleep

so but

okay what doesn't kill you makes you

stronger right so and then um yeah you

just I just have extra skill sets right

right now okay keep it for the future if

I need it so then then then what how um

share with us how then that uh helped

you to uh even get that President's

award and all that what what happened

was it that uh people noticed that your

your dance or people noticed your

choreography what was that and then what

do you major in that I think I think

people noticed my dance this is the

strange part where we start praising

ourselves right oh God yeah but

affirmation is important for performance

the world needs to judge you that's the

only way well we were judged very well

we were we were yeah we were suun held

us to very high standards and the

training the the work with him was

totally grueling and

uh very stressful and I was pushed to

physical and psychological limits I

didn't a you existed okay I didn't know

I could go that far

uh I

um um I'm spending my like now I I don't

know if I want to advocate for for such

a method of of or or such a a course of

such a life course that I went through

because I'm now in my I'm 41 yeah not 40

I'll be honest and realizing that I'm

I'm having to deal with a lot of um

traumas and

uh yeah like less than positive things

that happened because I didn't draw

boundaries or another discussion for

another day but suffice it to say uh

yeah we worked really hard and and and

because we s we quite quickly wowed

literally wowed the I mean the small the

small Singaporean the small Singaporean

scene that supported contemporary dance

we wed them with quite a a high level of

of um quite a high standard of artistry

MH for that time right right uh under

s's leadership uh we quickly gained

popularity and visibility mhm and yeah

and one would say that I was a little a

little minor celebrity in a very very

very small pond MH mhm so yeah then we I

started you know very quickly we started

getting these like Fanboy fan girl

situations where after you know like

after the the performance people will

come up you know these bright-eyed

bushytail young kids will be like oh you

done so well blah blah blah yeah stuff

right there okay full stop you get the

picture yeah so then um so you were

known uh in Singapore but how about

internationally was no just in Singapore

okay right then after that what happened

to you where you what do you pursue

after the seven years

uh things personally for me took took a

downhill turn like around year five it

was just very difficult and I

was exactly the person you are hoping to

address I was going through the motion

and I was autopilot in the worst way uh

waking up you just went to work and he

just like waking up not being happy

ending every evening with four pints of

beer okay just not good just not healthy

yeah and uh yeah I was autopilot in and

then after two years I said okay no this

had to stop mhm yeah and then I left the

company okay yeah okay what is

interesting about pass so it's

interesting H like even when you follow

your passion yes you can arrive at that

point where you're autopilot and you're

not passionate about your passion

anymore yeah what I I give the analogy

of a marathon runner who loves running

marathons but after his first marathon

he finishes it he's like he's like is

exhilarating right everything is like

wow I I finished it but imagine that

Marathon run running another Marathon

right after that nck after nck after nck

after n they just kept running so the

physical limitations of the body um are

there even though deep down inside your

passion is still there mhm was that what

happened that physically you were so

tired that even though you had passion

for dance and choreography it it just

didn't come out

yeah sick of it right okay so after that

you stopped you quit um you left I I

left the company I never I I I never

quit Arts you never quit okay then what

happened next I I quit because I knew

this this this way of addressing my

creativity and addressing my art was not

doing it justice anymore okay right I

was just literally not wanting to wake

up every day right it was a it was

dreary it's horribly dreary uh and I

said I needed breath of fresh air I left

mhm uh very abruptly and and

uh and uh I then knew that I needed to

leave the

country and I knew but so but at the

time when I when I left I knew I had

already known by then that I had sheld

aside certain personal artistic

interests over the past seven

years in the interest of building this

larger brand you know or this larger

company called th dance company and I'm

very proud of what we have achieved

together as the founding team with suun

I'm so happy now that it is just a

household name and I've done my job but

I realized it was nice to leave and then

also so this okay so this is the thing

right with with this whole like

following your passion yeah you do these

things where you constantly do this

stock taking right sing you just audit

yourself no audit

stocking do stock taking and then and

and then when you stock take when you

when you sit down and you reflect

um you know these are very important

moments in your passion so everybody

constantly talks about ah you know the

the drive and the you know you go but no

there's a lot of this empty time that

you need to create in your passion also

to go oh okay I've arrived at this space

and this is one of the points where I'm

like I arve at this space what do I want

what will make me excited again and I

Knew by that time I had sheld off a few

project

and one of the things I sh of was the

acquirement of more knowledge because I

knew I knew by that time in my early 30s

that I accessed and understood my my

world my universe my even my creativity

through theoretical underpinnings MH so

theoretical discourse even if it's

artistic theoretical discourse art

Theory and all that and I've one two I

knew I always at that time I knew that

Singapore was too small a space for me

way too small um and I would not be

happy if I constantly only developed in

Singapore okay so then looking for um a

space outside Singapore I already knew

that I was not interested in um the

North Atlantic MH and any other space

that uh had um that that gave that

taught in um culture and art in in in

English because they were also I was

also starting to get interested in art

philosophy and all that and and and some

of these trends that I was more

interested in were more Continental

European so so you know stock take I

mean so one don't want to be in

Singapore two need theoretical grounding

three not any english- speaking country

so already I zoned in on Continental

Europe and then I said to myself it had

to be a master's program because I

already had a ba

right uh in a a continental European

country that had an English inter that

had a masters in

English narrowed down hunted started

started to hunt and then you got it and

that's then I got it right and I got

into well I mean I graduated from it

already but yeah that's my most recent

academic um Pursuit so I did a masters

in choreography and performance at the

institute for Applied theater studies in

gon in Germany it's near Frankfurt okay

okay so that gave you that learning that

gave you that time away to uh learn

different uh interesting what you say

that when you learn you didn't want to

learn the english- speaking Nations when

it comes to Art um what distinction was

there between English speaking and

non-english speaking I think okay so I

think I was just while I was you know in

THD I was closely following like trends

like contempor dance Trends or

Contemporary Art Trends uh from the

North Atlantic meaning the USA yeah uh

and and Continental Europe and I was

always constantly tending towards Europe

okay so it was again you know just

narrowing things down because you one

never has all the resources and yeah

well I mean I we're not even talking

about like money but we're talking like

time right one never has enough time to

do everything so yeah so now after you

finished and all that what is the

what are you doing now and what is the

next steps me I'm now I now consider

myself a freelance uh contemporary

dancer

choreographer uh I I have been working

predominantly in Berlin because I've

been trying to build a European base the

eventual goal is to try to is to try to

connect uh this European base with my

Singapore and base because I'm fortunate

enough uh to be quite established in

Singapore and and I'm very fortunate to

up to today still receive the generosity

of the contempor dance community in

Singapore even though I've you know

disappeared from my studies and of

course Corona made traveling back and

forth very difficult but coming back

here still I I still feel welcomed I

still get jobs here So the plan is to

bridge two gaps one two the other plan

is also to stay as a in this within this

ecology as a creative maker for as long

as possible meaning to make dance to

dance itself uh as opposed to maybe

moving to other parts of the ecology

like being a teacher or being a writer

or you know so to stay in this right

like as a Creator right as a

creative so I I think for C choreography

right there it seems to me when I think

about it there is that um there is

lesser of this idea of a shelf life

compared to a dancer uh is that true not

true yes right it's very true I mean I

mean because there's energy and that

that that energy based on age does go

down for sure I mean yeah so exactly

like you know like you know there's no

need to discuss there's no need to talk

about Theory like you know when you

reach 40 you start to feel the body and

every the answers will be very clear for

you right then then what is um what

would you say then um you can still

dance you just but you just have to move

in different ways and that's exactly why

contempor dance affords you this this

way of thinking right because be

constantly trying to view trying to

challenge the the the the conventions of

how a body can move so so that's why

when you like staying in a space like

contemporary dance allows one there's

huge flexibility much more physical

longevity in that sense right and if B

you say Peak at 22 when do you go down

yeah only because you know when you when

look every Community Values something y

right and it's just what in the

contempor dance we

value uh um perspective

not only perspective but like

challenging us we we enjoy challenging

ourselves with different perspectives

you know like Oh I like that you you

know you destabilized my what I was what

I I normally would think is let's talk

about it and let's turn it into work in

ballet is still very the large part of

the community still very much is about

athleticism and achieving you know that

you know it's like the Olympics right if

you constantly gun to swim the

fastest sorry like at 40 you're just not

going to swim as fast as a 21 year old

even though you receive the same

training right so so the funny thing is

your priorities yeah so it's almost like

um um uh the sports of golf has a longer

longevity because it's not about like

that athletic ability like swimming or

like uh running you sure don't need that

much strength yeah which which then

means that that's why when you see golf

is like from 20 all the way to 50 60 you

can still be in the yeah

it's that spine of yours you'll be

golfing so I'm interested also that um

uh when I Define passion uh passion can

be a very elusive word for a lot of

people and they feel that it's like what

is it it's it's Airy it's it's something

that's non-tangible I Define passion to

three parts first part is interest which

means the topics you can talk about

forever MH right it it just doesn't go

away and it's almost known by the books

that you gravitate towards the YouTubes

the podcast that you gravitate towards

personally for you I personally have

like 10 different different interests 10

20 different interests I narrow down to

design to human psychology uh to

Performance and it kind of kind of like

uh brought me to this where I am now for

you besides um any other P any other

interest if you would just think back

that hey actually there was another

Crossroad I could have gone that way

besides dance you talking about like

well I have a huge passion interest

interest different interest that you

have I love language okay yeah I love

language and even right now you did

French when you said when you were

French yeah and and I forgot most of it

yeah cuz I never you know there's the

problem with language you know

you so so there was you there was there

was language there was photography there

was dance there was uh photography not

so fashion fashion yeah fashion okay

okay and was there any why Junctions in

the road along your way that you felt

that hey maybe if not dance this would

have

happened no no okay quite clear I mean

yes I mean yes every second is a why

right every second every second is a is

is an opening into not maybe not wise

right I mean we watched everything

everywhere all at once right such an

amazing film at every single moment I

can choose to suddenly slap you and then

that will open up an entire universe

that we have to negotiate you know or I

could suddenly fall off my chair or this

thing will drop the light you know every

every waking is an opportunity to move

in milon true true true okay so so I was

aware of a few directions but I when I

was younger I quite quickly closed them

and well not Clos I said maybe later

maybe later maybe later and I was quite

focused on okay quite singular with the

dance thing interesting so so that if I

were to um extrapolate to the Future as

well in the next 20 30 years it will

still be within this space I told myself

that I told myself that I will forever

locate myself in

art um in my I I given myself

the what's the

word I've not been so hard on myself I

say it might not be dance but it will

always be art right okay I

cannot whatever I move into it needs to

be closely and directly related to art

okay okay yeah okay so first one was is

interest there there are two more

pillars the second pillar would be

strengths strength is very much task

that comes naturally to you so for

example some people are numbers people

some people are I'm a people people yeah

people people some people are

gift I always thought that I'll be like

the perfect conage for a super upscale

Hotel hity yeah like I totally love

going places and I read people very well

and every Hotel would want someone like

me at the conge right and I would be

like you need the J Club go to this one

you need this one go to that one I would

have been perfect at that why what about

you that um picks your in your that

strength that you have or Hospitality it

lights me up I like I like dressing up I

like looking good I like walking around

thinking I'm like the Madame of the

house okay okay okay hospit yeah no you

really thought about it like I thought

about being like in if I had to do a

career switch it would be Hospitality

I'm a very good teacher I know that mhm

I was stop being I stop having imposters

syndrome I know that I impart knowledge

well I know that I am uh I I'm you I'm a

compelling teacher right so I would I I

would teach even so like to teach dance

to teach yeah so there was strength that

you have that you could just um you

could you saw yourself that you had that

natural inclination or Natural Instincts

to be able to teach well to be able to

have that Hospitality well to be able to

hold attention well because not many

people hold attention well right when

they have attention they have no idea

what to do but some people when they

have attention it flourishes and they

become more of who they are and they

become they become better versions when

there is that Limelight some people

can't do that and it's very rare

actually some people so it's interesting

that how it's interesting how you

separate these things which is very nice

right because you have a strength but

the strength doesn't translate to that

particular passion that you talk about

it doesn't but the strength is something

that you have and needs to be applied to

every single mfing aspect of your life

exactly yeah so you could be a nurse and

if you know you're meticulous or you're

you know like you know what I'm saying

exactly yeah so the the interesting

thing about strengths is not uh career

dependent it is how you do your career

so I can careers depend on it yes

successful careers depend on your

strength yes successful careers for

example both of us are con you would be

the diva con where people would be like

you know talk to man then she like he's

like okay come on I'm here for you I

will not be that kind of con but I'll be

the you know what this is my Excel

spreadsheet you be the Bell hop yeah

please just send send send the luggages

to him he'll bring it up to your room

we'll do it differently and um what

pequs you as teaching and what pequs me

is um it's um understanding why people

do what they do yeah right and we can

still be very good world class um con

but we do it in a very different way and

that's because of the strengths that we

have the innate wiring that we have yeah

totally so so yours is learning yours is

holding that that space of that

Limelight and yours is the ability to

it's almost that that that um teach not

only teaching but the human aspect it

seems like there is that aspect of

making people's eyes come

alive right that that something about

that like the W factors wow amazing

something like that I hope so okay so

that's strengths um and I I see a huge

Cor relation between the strengths that

you have to the the actual work that you

do yeah yeah and I'm a performer exactly

and that's the natural part and the last

one is values and values can be a little

bit tricky because for values sometimes

um we don't we don't think about what

values we hold and values are just like

priorities so for example for me one of

my core values is uh Adventure somebody

else could be stability and that's why I

will never join singu right because

Adventure I'm I'm sure it's a very

adventurous

with no Dum moment right now now no but

but like Adventure means that I want to

break barriers all the time if there's a

box I want to break it but somebody else

with stability as a as a core value or

value that they hold would be like yeah

I want to join stability or thing who or

somewhere that that maintains that

stability I'm curious about you um for

you my values are like Venture boldness

I want Discovery I want originality if

there was one word of phrase that you

will say that I actually prioritize that

a lot in my life what would that be that

value

W yeah it's true how we never give these

things thought and but a lot of times we

act through our values and I think

people who are very clear in Life or

position themselves very

clearly actually hold their their

personal values very you know very

clearly and very strongly and but it's

easier to act through them rather than

Define them because it's autopilot it's

the DNA inside you that that you have

decided that this is going to going to

be my

value um and yet it's um it is it it

okay so the perfect job makes your it's

able to let you live out your value yeah

right so for example a value yeah so

example value could be like for uh conc

would be like um uh to brighten people's

minds and hearts you know that that

could be a value that it's like I just

want to be able to do that all the time

right curious about

yours

um my

values you mean like you mean like

what's important for me yeah yeah

um it could I need I need to so like an

important value maybe honesty is that is

that a value so value is almost any

anything you choose the word I need to

wake up every day knowing that I can

face myself in the mirror when I brush

my teeth yeah so honesty sounds a little

bit like authenticity sounds a little

bit like tress yeah yeah okay yeah so

yeah thank you because you you you also

have these amazing systems with with

with your work and know that and you

have these yes it would move through

those things authenticity is a nice word

yeah like I I I'm a bad

liar okay if I'm in a shitty situation

or a job I would just make it quite

quickly known to the people around me

and then I really change the mood in the

room so yeah I couldn't I couldn't

operate without a level of authenticity

right yeah okay and so any any sort of

situ sorry bit slow so any sort of like

professional situation that required me

to not be authentic would be I could do

it because in the end I'm a in the end

I'm a performer you could give me a

script and I could give you the illusion

that I hm because that's one of the

things I do good and I'm good at but I

if you tell me to be like to be doing

this in a prolonged situation I would

just die MH yeah okay so authenticity

the tress to yourself when you see

yourself in the mirror you knowing that

when when you see yourself in the mirror

what is it that you feel that that is

right and what is and that is wrong what

is it what do mean wrong it's almost

like elaborate when you see yourself in

the mirror you want to know something

about yourself that I am true to myself

MH right along that line but

then what would be the negative of that

like when you have this this this you

know like unsettled feeling of

dissatisfaction all the time when and

and yeah and it's not just a minor

dissatisfaction of a [ __ ] the deadline

is coming and I really have to finish

that last paragraph that one we do it on

a daily basis and that's not

dissatisfaction that's just get up your

lazy [ __ ] ass and do it yeah but like

literally like you know when you have

you know these kind of like feelings in

your body body they are prolonged and

you know just like yeah it's not

bringing you any Joy any satisfaction

any you know you're losing sleep you

know these kind of things you know It's

upsetting your body and and you know it

it's just very deep down inside that

it's not where you want to be right I

think I would like to believe that we

are still we haven't been so numbed by

our by our by some of our daily ins and

outs of life that we don't even switch

our bodies on to signals M right it's

just then when we feel these signals do

we act on them or to which degree do we

act on them or do we numb them because a

lot of people just numb them and then

let's we act on them by numbing them so

yeah and that's a decision and that

brings uh certain that produces a

certain kind of person yeah yeah and I

just didn't want to be that sort of

person I was there for two years like

like the last two or three years of

being in DG were was that I was just

numb okay yeah okay one thing as we were

talking and uh one thing that's that

kind of lit up for me for you was that

the idea of challenge challenging a norm

or challenge it's almost that the um is

that sweet

Rebellion yeah you know it's like um

when this is the norm let's let's break

it and and yeah I used to be much more

braty like that now I don't just I have

no more energy to like break norms for

the sake of breaking them yeah it's uh

it's almost the whole idea of

contemporary the whole idea when you

shared a little bit about like um let's

challenge let's negotiate Let's uh let's

talk about how that thing appeared and

changed my mindset that sounded a little

bit like that it's almost like a value

that you value negotiation you value

contrast Yes actually that is that is

well not maybe not contrast but I mean

the word negotiation really lights up

because that is my artistic practice

right now that that I that I'm very much

concerned with how

uh dance can be used as an art form to

understand and learn about your your

environment you know you know MH um um

and and that the act of dancing is

itself an act of dynamic

negotiation um with between the dancer

and the body the people perceiving the

dance or the space that you dance to so

yes negotiation is a very important

thing interesting that used to but

nobody kind of like I don't hear that

Dynamic negotiation because a lot of

negotiations are not very Dynamic at all

and then that creates also a lot of

problems because then we're just not

living in the present moment of what

that person really needs right and I

think that's a lot

of yeah a lot of problems are caused

because people negotiate with

predetermined Notions or predetermined

assumptions when actually the current

actual situation in front

when actually the current situation in

front of them uh is not going according

to what the parties involved are have

predetermined have have have

pre-assumed you know what I'm saying

yeah so in so interesting that the the

it's almost like you want to change

Minds through the art form that you have

you want to change the audience Minds

for a short period of time to give them

some paradigm shift that they didn't

have before not change minds but propose

something different let's let's let's

let's let's let's posit the fact that

everybody has their own agency to change

their own minds and I'm not here to

change Minds I'm here to present

something propose something differently

from from my perspective very humbly

right right and that's where the

negotiation comes where this is your

this is your ask like hey see this and

let your mind wonder what this means to

you yes you can be firm with your

proposition and or your proposal and I

think everybody should be

but after proposing something one needs

to understand that and have enough

humility to also realize that there will

be a counter

proposal y yeah yeah okay and then

that's where the negotiation starts

right thank you thank you um running of

time actually we've overrun uh one last

thing if you if you had um almost I love

I love life hacks so life hacks is all

about like finding shortcuts finding

things and all that is there any life

hack that you have um just wearing that

hat that you have of dancer

choreographer any life hack that you

have when it comes to life hack let me

think so it could be um because when I

go into somatics and somatics is uh

coaching there's something to do with

the

body sometimes tells the truth earlier

than the mind and sometimes the body

helps you to change the state that you

have in your mind and that's um that's

an amazing thing for me um especially

when you know some people are down and

some people feel low just by changing

the body you are almost telling the the

mind that you can't go into that level

or you can't go into that space and

emotion you need to go to another space

and emotion and that's interesting to me

I do I have any life Hecks or anything I

don't know I I've never thought of H

that's okay it's fine no no life

actually I constantly do I constantly

throw myself big questions and like give

myself trouble like that okay sorry so

maybe no problem then one last thing if

somebody um in somebody in the audience

is actually looking to pursue Arts what

would you just say to

them um I would

say uh do it but do it with a very

clear uh uh how do you say uh do it with

also a Clarity to your current uh your

current

um

realities yeah following a passion

that's why I don't like I don't like um

a lot of these representations of

passion like in in in you know in films

and everything which just diving in and

smiling it's not like that it's actually

very tough uh and it requires things

like commitment it requ Rees things like

dedication uh

tenacity um so I think especially when

you're talking about midcareer types we

have to also really consider um what our

realities are yeah there is a way to

definitely pursue your

passion sometimes it it appears to you

in a very interesting way that you least

expect be open enough to wait for those

times because things if you if if

we open ourselves and make ourselves

available things show themselves to us

naturally yeah um don't jump into deep

Waters without aive boy that's stupidity

that's not passion then everybody has to

save you and it's a bit frustrating

don't right uh passion requires research

passion requires a lot of backend um

finding out the the mechanic and the

Dynamics of and the realities in short

the word

reality the take home is the word

passion is inevitably tied to the word

reality and and anyone who drops the

word

reality suffers from delusion and not

and is not pursuing their passion right

the passion will happen right because

like we said because these These are

strengths they will always be there yeah

yeah we just have to wait for the

correct time it's about being strategic

also and all that kind of stuff when you

talk about reality what what jumps out

is that the practicality of everything

Financial practicality as well yeah you

have two kids and you just started

paying for your condominium what you

going to do drop your banking job yeah

sure no do it do

go every decision brings you you know

things and yeah okay fine if you create

the next Facebook then okay good on you

but you know yeah it's not a good bad

thing right it's just yeah you you're

doing that you're unplugging it I

definitely want to say go and I want you

need to find the people who will support

you but you also need to find the

correct people to say hey but what if we

do this maybe if we don't pull the part

completely you know like you know have

people to discuss also yeah good thank

you so much so you're welcome thank you

so much my wife for your time here I

enjoyed uh learning even though I know

you for 30 over years I enjoyed learning

about your whole story and I hope people

are ins INSP spired about just going

forth and understanding that there is a

price to pay for passion and sometimes

that wisdom comes from just being very

practical and uh being a realist rather

than just an idealist they you know the

in both it's the infinity sign right

idealism and reality and they are

constantly connected like that they

don't exist in passion they do not exist

one with they're not mutually exclusive

and they're not the existence of one

does not kill the other one they both

have to exist agree don't that's the

take home no more binaries no more

binaries thank you mark for your time today

you're welcome

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