TRANSCRIPT

Becoming Singapore’s Sought After Architect - Mark Wee | The CJH Podcast EP21

*Captions are taken directly from YouTube and may not be 100% accurate

[Music]

taking all right everybody Welcome again

and today we have Mark Wei in the house

thank you Mark for being here thanks for

having me Jason all right a little bit

about Mark let me just introduce him

Mark is an artist architect and educator

Mark is a design thinking and

experienced design Pioneer in Singapore

who believes that good design can change

the world and that creativity is the key

to Singapore's future what else are you

doing mark because I know you're doing

tons of

stuff yeah right I mean first go to my

LinkedIn it's probably a lot easier to

break it down but uh thanks for having

me um well I mean a lot of people have

been wondering what I'm doing these days

uh as you know most of the public uh KN

knew that in the last five years I was

the executive director of design

Singapore yes uh where I was just

hitting up the national Agency for

design looking to developing policies on

how to uh bring design into uh business

better uh taking care of our design

Industries and of course thinking about

what the Singapore design brand is and

obviously to most of the public they

would have interacted with us at the

national Design Center um prior to that

you know I I Was An Architect and an

experienced designer for many years uh

but most people are really asking what

am I doing these days right yes and so I

think you you might have that's where we

met uh most recently uh in the papers uh

there was an announcement about uh the

launch of the design your life Institute

yes which I co-founded with uh Professor

Bill Bernett from Stanford uh so that

one is really exciting uh we have a

mission to equip and everyone with

design tools so they can design much

more meaningful lives uh for themselves

which we feel everyone on this island

really wants but what else am I doing

I'm also the managing director for uh a

friends company mini wayss where we are

the kind of global pioneers for taking

con a single consumer trash making into

building materials so we are on a

mission now to also try to kind of

disrupt the uh build business events

industry by through this new sustainable

um Booth exhibition system we have right

that's also made from uh trash and then

on the side when I'm still uh in the in

the rest of 24 hours I'm still

practicing as an architect and an artist

but really on a select selective basis

so just day I don't know when this

podcast is coming out but we just

launched uh I just launched a little

collection of a collaboration with uh

children's clothing company [ __ ] mouses

and birds where uh my drawings are on uh

children's clothes so oh if you have

more children than you already have uh

please get some yeah right and and I

also know last time long time ago you

also doing experience design

architecture and all that yeah so I mean

uh I'm I'm I'm trained as an architect I

I went to school and I did architecture

but also have a license and architecture

so I've obviously it's something that I

always practiced and has been dear to me

from uh from the from the start of my

profession but also just me being just

kind of constantly curious about

everything I many years ago I was just

really interested in how an entire

experience could be designed all the way

down to the service touch points the

products that were part of the the

experience and I just kind of uh I guess

you know kind of created a sort of um

pioner a feel of experience design where

I was able to do that H where we apply

kind of design thinking towards thinking

about how to actually engage people in a

more meaningful way through products and

services so yes so I was doing all that

uh many years ago right so not only the

buildings and uh architecture but also

the experience that people have

absolutely yeah so I mean some things

that maybe you'll be familiar with if

you go and buy your flat from the

Housing Development board uh we will

have designed the en entire experience

from you know uh from start all the way

to your uh to you going to toay HUB to

uh make an appointment to you getting

your keys um if you sit in any of the

Singapore Airlines lounges around the

world you know that new format loue

lounges we actually created experience

for it and if you um if you bank with

Frank you know ocbc has a bank called

Frank we created that young bank for

them to reach a different customer

segment many years ago as well so those

are just some of the things we've done

alongside other sort of uh other kind of

experiences over the years is so I'm

very curious about uh people living out

their passion and it seems that that

passion that you have or that fire you

have has been something about design

something about creativity when did it

first start um and share with us your

journey wow um no I've always I'm always

been a kind of creative kid I always

been a curious kid always sort of had a

independent mind and also just had

parents who were just very encouraging

to just encourage me and my sister in

their our interest

so I think you know sort of creativity

has been something that I've always

helped dearly and on top of that I've

always had the belief that you know I

could pursue my interest and create even

a career for myself uh even if it didn't

exist and I was just very fortunate to

be able to kind of do that uh at an

early age yeah so when give me the for

example um an experience that you had

last time when you felt that okay I I

was doing this and I felt hey this this

came naturally was it like a CCA you had

in school or do you enter art

competition what gave you that green

light to say that hey that is your north

kind of just try to follow that well I

don't know I mean I I think there'll

probably be a few experiences but I mean

some things that really kind of stick in

my mind uh today I mean even at a very

early age I think uh you know my parents

knew I was like um I I did pretty well

at art class okay so so that's right

like like you know Yamaha class like you

know during those days so my parents

like you know they they they knew I was

doing well and I would win some of these

art competitions so clearly my my

parents sort of like just uh made sure

that I could pursue that uh the other

thing was also my parents were really

encouraging about me pursuing art in

school cuz you know and where I went to

school I mean even today I mean art

isn't a subject that people take very

seriously y yeah it's just a it's just a

like H Ming you know it's like how I

mean today I think with sa and all that

it's so much more sophisticated but

during that time it's really like right

no one takes it seriously so because of

that I mean even even when I was in

secondary school right everyone my I had

to make ask for an exemption to actually

take my my 10th old level subject in art

and my mom had to go and then talk to

the teacher and says hey can we make an

appeal for it because no one else was

taking it right so first I had parents

who encouraged that yeah and then of

course I mean I think just uh growing up

my parents actually are just you know

they like interior design they like uh

they had a good eye for things so I

think growing up uh you know you're

already kind of surrounded by that uh

but then the other thing around were

they in their profession no so

unfortunately I mean they don't I think

uh they don't they they do they they run

a small local business but they were

never in a profession but although I had

some relatives who are Architects and

interior designers uh so in some ways

you know I kind of took inspiration from

that but my parents themselves know but

what I took away most was they always

just told us that we could do everything

anything and and nothing was impossible

and they were just very supportive about

everything we did my my my grandmother

used to be a famous chef she used to

write her own cookbook she used to have

her own um uh cooking program in like I

don't know 70s or 80s are you serious

her name is like Dorthy if you go and

Google it like dor 's my favorite Asian

recipe she's a prakan Chef last time I

time was yank and cook yeah well I think

might even beig right uh so but she and

she used to also be a teacher she used

to teach art and piano and music in uh I

think gong MGS okay right so you know

growing up I kind of had that kind of

background and um and you know uh during

Army um you know you know I have I had

like like clerical job so I my I was

already thinking of going into sort of

like uh architecture uh and my parents

were like you know what if you're going

to invest into this just make sure you

want to do it make sure you don't make

the wrong choice so Army I I just Ed

that time to just run my own design

agency to explore different projects and

I made my own fashion label I I kind of

did freelance work but basically I just

came to a conclusion that architecture

was something that I couldn't figure out

on my own I really needed to go to

school for right and I think just being

able to expose yourself just try new

things see see what's stuck learning

from those those mistakes I think just

kind of builds up to kind of some sort

of clarity for what you want to do right

so that's how I ended up finally going

to architecture school right so

interesting uh in in school uh you kind

of just did well with art and then do

you do like a major in secondary school

O Level art um well I mean yeah so I did

uh uh Primary School secondary school I

did all levels I did a level art

although to be honest the junior college

I went they were three people in art

class that's how like unserious art was

and on top of that I got a e for art I

got terrible for art I I think it's

probably the fault of the

teacher but uh oh my goodness yeah but

you know but in my portfolio application

to University I basically just cuz I

used to write I I made a fashion label I

I did some other freelance work in army

so I put all that together in my

application form and my portfolio and I

also put in my o l i mean my a level

artwork which I got got e but I didn't

think it was that bad and I just said

well this is you know this is what it is

and I said I disagree with E I think my

works pretty good right and I said why

don't you just look at what I have in

entirety and it got me an interview and

and eventually got me into into

University right so I did yeah so I mean

I was just fortunate to go to really

good uh program for architecture and so

so I think that was really uh uh

mind-blowing for me I mean going to

University was just life-changing it

just changed the way I I thought about

the world um but just another reference

to what about my kind of growing up

years that sort of like shaped who I am

was I used to outside art class I used

to just hang out with a lot of friends

in the neighborhood uh you know we had

this I used to hang out in this place

called Shrine Gardens with a lot of

friends and they were all from different

walks of life and used to skateboard a

lot and used to do a lot of sort of

Adventure kind of

like es

escapades and you know we climb the

drains we kind of like you know just

like do stupid things we'll kind of like

make skateboarding videos we like and

just really have a lot of fun and a lot

of play and I think a lot of those

things actually kind of contributed to

this kind of creative kind of like

pioneering kind of like just try you

know see what happens kind of mindset

that I I still bring into anything I do

today yeah so it's it's it's interesting

that you talked about play and um when

when I talk about performance and if you

want to let's say somebody wants to be

industry number one they want to break

that barrier yeah uh at that level it is

not only just work but it feels more

like play yeah it feels more like fun

that you are adventurers we try it's

almost like skating you try new tricks

and you just just try it because the

trying helps to break that barrier oh no

absolutely I mean play is so underrated

right but but you know if you look at

even the best sort of like people in

whatever field I mean it could be in

scientific Fields uh more formal

creative field SKS or any profession you

know there's there's ability where of

play that they have in experimenting

asking uh unexpected questions looking

at it from different angles that I think

ultimately there's a creative sort of

perspective to their profession and and

I think play is linked to obviously

creativity and play is being able to

sort of like just in a way kind of try

new things innovate uh not be I mean

don't thing to Heart sometimes take some

calculated risk and and be okay with

failure yeah and actually and and

skateboarding actually it's one of those

things that really teaches you very well

because you always fall down but you get

up and the truth is that you're always

sort of like innovating because you're

looking around the street to see what I

can grind on or what could I slide on so

you're kind of improvising right and I

think that's super important in life

right and in many ways I mean I think

years ago there was a PhD student that

did an interview with me about sort of

you know my my professional history and

so-called success and she said what

attributed towards those things and I

talked about skateboarding and and and

hang out with people and I said a lot of

those things are not fortunately

encouraged in the school system yeah

right school systems are all about

getting your your your great ride or

getting the right answer and truth the

truth is in life there's no always right

answer there many good answers yeah

right yeah I like your analogy about

skateboarding and how that looks like uh

in that's where creative ity uh meets

failure and um we're just trying to find

different things to do trying to find oh

maybe that works maybe that works we try

that and and it's um it's the idea of

like we will all a skateboarder will

always fall yep uh and you just get up

and and it kind of numbs you to the idea

of failure and the failure is just like

okay you do it 16 times 17 times you get

it yeah no yeah no so failure like

numbing yourself of failure so it's huge

I mean the other thing I also remember

was that the first time I failed uh uh

test was I think when I was in maybe

like SE two 14 years I think I filled a

history test okay and I thought that was

that really sort of was important

because so a I feel it I was like oh my

God right oh my God never fail anything

before then you're like oh that's it

let's try again yeah and I re and to

remember till today I remember that

failure because I realized that actually

it wasn't such a big deal yeah and and

that has stuck with me today when people

when I'm going to try new things and

people say what if you fil I'm like so

you just kind of figure it out after

that right so I think these things to be

honest really kind of like shape your

mindset yeah awesome so um share with me

about how you kind of like um did up

your fashion U brand fashion label and

you did freelance design in Army like

how did that work that means did you

have that before Army and then you were

expanding it or like in Army I have a

lot of time like what should I do let's

make some money was it money or was it

just I needed an

expression well yeah so a clearly needed

an expression you're not going to

express that much of what I want in Army

but uh so a I was I was I was going to

get a I knew I was going to I was going

to be assigned to a clerical job so I

had kind of time to kill right so what I

did was uh and then I used to skateboard

so I remember sort of like just going to

Army and I bumed into a friend of mine

who was also used to skateboard with and

he was also going to be in similar

situation Army so we like okay what are

you going to do for the next two and a

half years of your life right like what

you do he's like yeah man you know let's

find something interesting so we just

started from there so I knew two things

I had this sort of length of time to

also be clear about what I wanted to

study and I basically said okay why

don't I just really kind of explore so

we first started and you know in many

ways like even the designing of Life

Institute we're just designing forward

right and just playing and seeing what

doors open up so I remember the first

thing we did was because in when we used

to skape

you know I don't know where used to

skate but skate t-shirts were really

cool big Mambo shirts big Mambo shirts a

vision like power perala but basically

like the graphics were not in the

typical places right so basically we

made first our own batch of skate

t-shirts right and then I remember it

was our label is called Inc uh we made

t-shirts we printed them uh we made the

labels my friend's mother actually like

sold it on the back of the of the shirts

for us and we were like okay so we have

the T-shirt where do we sell it so I

remember we went to F Plaza and we

started knocking on doors and saying

like would you buy our t-shirts 77

streets and other yeah 77th Street right

some and but those days unfortunately

this must been in like the '90s right

those days no one people will only be

selling sort of well-known brand names

so they're like oh we're going to sell

Quicks silver or sty right but you have

this independent label yeah so remembers

so everyone rejected us but we finally

went up to the four floor the top floor

where the chicken rice is around the

chicken rice but behind the chicken rice

there's this one lady with this Chinese

lady small petite lady with dreadlocks

her name is Fifi right Fiona if you hear

this right thank you um and she looked

at our t-shirts and she said and she she

used to run the shop called DN mhm and

she said I will sell your stuff on one

condition that you just don't sell it

anywhere else I'm like that's fine no

one else is

taking and so she sold our stuff and it

turns out that you know she was she was

she was a very well-known stalker she

was a buyer for blackjack later uh Club

21 uh but and those days she would be

stocking unique clothes and a lot of

celebrities would buy from her wow like

you know Naj Ali would buy from her aot

people on the r show I mean all this

stuff right and our stuff started being

picked up by these guys right and we

were sort of like part of a kind of like

small pool den of people who are kind of

creating their own lab

today is much more common and then after

after that what happened was we got

introduced to other celebrities and then

so we ended up doing more things for

them so we ended up doing uh collaterals

for mum movement uh you wouldn't even

know what that was uh for then theater

works right uh and and then it led to

sort of other things so so that label L

us to be able to do uh work for Theater

Works which uh and then Kingson then

they just looked at these young guys and

you know we were you know just going to

do it for practically like like not a

lot of money and she's like okay you

know you guys have the skills just go

for it so we started doing those things

and then the other thing that was really

fun was um I guess I should put this on

podcast um uh during those days um if

the brand Snapple was launching you know

Snapple the the drink brand so in Army

right so basically uh snap was launching

and and I was kind of bored I listening

to radio and they were doing this kind

of like campaign saying that if you

write a letter on why you love Snapple

so much right you the best letter will

win 1,000 bottles of Snapple right so

during those days I was like okay it's

like type my letter and I just like you

know send the letter to them and those

days were facts you know right and um

basically I I win a bottle 1,000 bottles

of stample so I'm like okay what I de I

go down and I pick up you know all the

stuff and then I ended up talking to

them and telling them that you know I

also do some like you know copyrighting

and sort of Art and then we end up doing

a lot of work for them as well as well I

mean just a bunch of kids right so so

what what do you what work do you do for

them so I did some some ads some

copyrighting ads was this your first for

to ads yeah and actually more

interestingly the main thing was she

said okay you had the best letter so you

won congrats it's a th000 bottles of

Snapple but but 50 other people who

wrote in letters that didn't win I will

pay 50 bucks to write a personalized

letter to all 50 of them each as a way

that Snapple makes this human connection

with our customers and then on top of

that that's how I got my first paid

advertising sort of like you know kind

of that kind of job so I put all those

things in my portfolio and that's how

the 50 letters as well I mean the

letters the the the the the the the the

um collaterals for Theater Works the the

fashion label all those things I put it

in and then that's how I got my my

interview with uh with Cornell yeah

amazing so it um I think you talk about

it uh in design your life is about

prototyping yeah there's the idea of

like you don't know you just need to

open the door and the first door will

lead to another door absolutely right it

wow how who would have known that

there's two two guys in Army trying to

come up with Skate brand goes to

celebrities and Snapple and all that and

then you started doing that and that was

that was just because you did the first

thing yeah and and that's the thing

people over calculate right there's this

thing about sort of just in many ways

kind of just trying yeah and then of

course you know sort of just seeing life

opens doors into other things and I

think I think why people also gave us

the Chan is that we were curious yeah

and we were kind of like you know we

were exploring and people always like

Curious people yeah and I've never found

I've never been turned down out of

curiosity just to meet people ask them

questions and connect and I think that's

something that's really undervalued this

idea of curiosity this idea of like

collaboration this idea of just even

just like you know trying new things we

really need that

yeah from when I think about like who do

I feel most open to is actually people

who are most hungry they're like that

they the hunger for something and that I

think that Curiosity feeds into the

hunger that I want to learn more I want

to do more I'm willing to try you want

to you want to do it for free I'll do it

for free for now but if you really like

my work can you pay me in the future

it's that little Hustle by but that the

idea of like still coming back to

creating your luck you know you you you

do everything where uh people around you

are the decision makers and then you

create your own luck because they see

your effort your hunger and your

curiosity and that opens doors

that noely yeah just that opens doors

because human beings are just fired up

when they see somebody on fire yeah and

and and the truth is that every

successful sort of like personality out

there if you really ask them about their

Journey it's never linear yes

never right and and there's so many

things that you could say they was

unplanned but you know I think there is

something about just starting and moving

that allows you to have inertia to open

up other things rather than sort of like

just overanalyzing thinking about all

the things that couldn't work as opposed

to thinking about all the things that

could work that sort of like inform your

action about whether you should move

forward and and and try rather than just

sit down and deliberate all the time

yeah yeah so something also about the

idea that um why try something when I

know that I might not succeed that that

holds people back right and and that

just caps people from just opening the

first door yeah and and the truth is

also you can take some calculated risk

yes definitely right I mean you know

it's not about I mean not everything in

life are sort of like these zero to one

like you know if I if I if I burn and

you know and and and and and doesn't

work out you know it's just going to end

in disaster I think it's also a kind of

muscle you build up when you're young

through smaller you know actions and

then that they can build confidence for

you to take on bigger kind of challenges

so I feel a lot of things I started like

I find linkages to you know being on a

skateboard falling down getting up and

just you know practicing till you get

the trick right right yes to like you

know you know investing a couple hundred

dollars making some T-shirts and seeing

who buys yeah if not you just have a lot

of t-shirts to wear for yourself right

that right that even till today right

even just for me kind of you know I I

was kind of Pion in this whole design

thinking experience design thing just

trying out something and just see who

stick and then today right the stuff I'm

doing we're starting Institute trying to

bring that skill to everyone so I

mean yeah just that's life man yeah it's

the it's the beautiful heart of a a

designer where where it's never or uh

you can call it a scientist you can call

it a an artist that um the first 15

paintings or the first 15 iterations is

going to be bad yeah that's okay and and

that's just part of the the the whole

thing and and I think a lot of people

and also for people who want to go into

social media that also is stopping them

as well it's like I I it's not perfect

enough I don't want to do the first

video or the first post and all that but

the quantity uh increases your quality

over time and you need that quantity to

to give you more and more distinction of

like now I see more things and that's

why and it's it's just so idea of life

that are some people that are willing to

reach outside of what they think they

can but still in the end get it yeah no

yeah and so these are muscles these are

muscles I mean on one hand in my life I

asked what kind of muscles are built I

mean so one from the skill set right I I

draw as an artist right shout out you

can go to my

website M.S but that comes from sort of

just doodling in my books from you know

class from Young just but you know just

being able to draw so much you kind of

like know your own style and you kind of

know how you can execute something but

on the other hand another muscle has was

this sort of like try and then you know

just try again and then somehow also an

intuition around what this the what

opportunity is presented to you in terms

of in terms of life where certain things

are just connecting you think okay you

know there's something here I should

justum jump on that it's that you build

up and then the older you get you're

just more confident maybe you're clearer

but it's it comes from years of sort of

just uh you know kind of kind of tapping

in you know to the intuition so I I like

last time I was in Insurance and

financial advisory and there a lot of

people who like feel you know be in 6

months if you don't do if you stay after

6 months you have a high chance that

this guy has a good attitude and there

was this one uh girl last time and she's

like she had really bad production like

nobody wanted to buy anything from her

but she just stayed the cost and carry

it on and then uh we call her

the know it's that cockroach that never

gives up and that attitude so beautiful

and that that embracement of failure

that we just carry on and now she's good

yeah and it's that that that that fire

of just keep going as long as you're

driving you can turn the wheel and you

will reach that destination well that's

true but I I think that also has be kind

of underpinned by I mean I was talking

to B Bill the the other day I was saying

there was a recent kind of research

study about sort of what are some of the

most important qualities for good CEOs

and things like that and and basically

it was about self-awareness so I think

that needs to be underpin also with

selfawareness right because the truth is

that you could be trying something all

the time but maybe you know maybe you

don't have but you're not going to be

great at it and and but yet you're kind

of SL maybe refusing to acknowledge it

or maybe you're just kind of like you

know ignoring some illusional delusional

yeah you think you're good but the

market doesn't see it as that yeah so so

I think I think you got to sort of

counter that with self-awareness yes and

self-a awareness hopefully comes with

you just being also very open about how

to improve yourself maybe having s a

close circle of friends who can also be

very Frank with you about where you can

improve yeah and then not and being able

humble enough to sort of just adjust

yourself and learn and you know and

improve and ask questions uh all the way

way even you know for as long as you

live I think that that's that's probably

the best combination um so I always say

there are two kinds of leaders or two

kinds of people one is egoistic and one

is humble yeah the humble is like good

soil that anything you put in there's a

potential of growth yeah the the

egoistic is heart soil that no matter

what you put nothing happens and and the

ability for us as human beings to um be

so aware to keep understanding that yes

the the I I need to work on my soil so

that I'm able to be open to people so

that when gems do come and they do

always come from different people yes uh

that Saul can pick it up yes rather than

that it just goes It goes away for the

other person and that humility is so

rare and when I do Tik toks and I do

about leaders most of the complaints

people have is that my my leader is

egoistic it's his way or the other way

and I find that so painful when people

are not open to to just hearing other

people's point of view and and it's

almost like sometimes when you see

American Idol it's like this person

singing is [ __ ] it's really bad but they

are so delusional to say that you have

no idea what is it so it's like wow is

this that whole that there is that

tension where um we want to we want that

confidence people have of themselves but

yet we want that that almost that

water-like humility that anytime you can

actually move along with that

self-awareness yeah I mean I mean this

is idea of meekness right so meekness is

about knowing who you are and in a way

also

acknowledging what you're good at yeah

but also knowing that you know um uh not

to sort of like over Market or over

estimate yourself yeah but also just

acknowledge where you're good at you

know it's it's a gift and I think it's

about you know it's not saying oh

everything you know oh no no it's not me

not me no you know certain things so I

know my strengths right yeah we talked

about it I mean my strength find it is

pretty clear right I mean I'm I'm

futuristic strategic I have ideation

input and achiever yeah so what that

means is that just naturally my brain is

just thinking about you know I I have a

sense about what's next yeah I I have a

kind of high endurance to try to get

there I I ideate easily right I just

need knowledge but you know you kind of

know you who you are so but there

certain things I'm just really crap at

right so I think humility is also just

acknowledging who you are and then what

you're not and I think the other thing

also about leader leaders I mean it

depends also what kind of leader you

want to be some people are quite happy

sort of just in a way um driving their

own point of view but you know everyone

hates them right uh um not to say that

when you should always just be a man

pleaser but I think leaders also who are

human where people respect because they

know how to draw the line but also they

care about others and because of that

they also have Rich relationships in

their lives I think those things things

make I think that's most the most

fulfilling uh positions to be in yeah

you talk about leaders because the

impact they have is so great to the team

but actually that's the human being

every human being should be that way

yeah that's an ideal state of a human

being where where there's the

relationship part there's the results

part we push for results but hey hang on

uh the the people need that care concern

that that that warmth yes yeah so coming

back to your to now that you are done

with all that and then you're now in the

university and um if you were to just

backtrack a little bit I'm curious about

were there any other like interest that

you had um that could have been in a

Multiverse M we would have been somebody

else because I Define passion as one of

them is interest right and I have 10 20

different interests yeah what other

interest do you have that you look back

you be like hey actually that was a y

Junction

there besides design drawing sketching

and all that anything anything else that

you had and

skateboarding still watch skate videos

today by the way could have been a

pro there's no way I can pull off some

of the STS uh but I so one I've always

been like you said I've had a diverse

bunch of interest um I think lot rather

than to live in regret to say that hey

you know should I have studied something

else um and knowing that in today you

know there's still many things you can

study yeah um I do know that I'm

interested I was always interested in

business uh you know uh been

entrepreneur uh interested in um kind of

things like um brand Innovation yeah um

um so those were and even real estate

right uh you know I've always looked at

houses and properties and all that as an

architect or as an investor or I love to

be a real estate developer I think I

could build some really nice building

right um but so all these are things

that in a way not totally outside the

universe what I do but clearly were

areas still are areas of interest that I

do ask myself if I had studied those

things formally would it had led to

different life but because you know you

think about things like business things

like real estate things like uh

Innovation brand yeah I think very much

I'm still able to think and on how to

build those things in you know in the

next what 50 years of my life right so I

don't see but I probably would have to

learn about these things uh you know

it's sort of out of school yeah so um on

that note yeah I mean the other thing

also I was I mean I'm an artist right so

you know this idea should I have gone to

art school and know I don't know I don't

live in regret I I I really enjoyed

school um uh one thing that I remember

was so when I so I went to Cornell and

I'm just going to shout out to my

grandma who was passed on my grandma

basically gave me all her money to go to

school right because it's really

expensive to go to school and you know

she was just one of those you know

big-hearted woman who just said you know

um you know she's getting quite old and

she said you know why do you just take

and go to school right so and I when I

went to school uh I remember sort of

orientation day and we're all sitting

standing in the light you know in the

kind of gallery and uh the dean

basically um looked and addressed uh

looked to the to the to us and then

basically

said

parents uh turn around and look at your

kid look into his his or her eyes and

says remember what you see and this was

August at the start of fall right it

says when they come if they come back to

you in December for holidays or you know

or maybe summer he says remember that we

will change the way they look at the

world forever and he says and he says

this what the education is for so I just

had a blast of a time in school but if

anything it just allowed me to just look

at the world just differently and how to

create great ideas in anything I do so

and that's something that you know till

today I'm just grateful for going to

architecture school for awesome so so if

I were to just try to break it down so

your interest were all about design uh

within the design scope right so

branding and all that you still have

interest in that and and my personal

belief of interest is that we can the

places where we have interest in is the

places where we grow the

fastest right so if you would have go to

let's say branding in the future and all

that that's where probably you have an

exponential growth because the it's

almost the universe uh speaks the same

language as what you already understand

is design yeah right yeah so there's one

part that's um interest and there's

another part that's called strengths and

you mentioned about strength just now a

little bit about the futuristic and all

that when you were younger did you know

that you had a neck or an eye for

designed do you know

that I think when you're young you knew

what interest you because you know those

things would just you know um you would

know and hence you because of that you

spend more time you be very happy to

read about these things and all that so

I clearly was interested in art and

design and architecture yeah uh and also

was always interested in new Innovative

uh uh inventions or ideas pioneering

ideas which led to either technological

ideas to even uh you know great brand

campaigns also you know kind of like

pioneering in a way because they

communicate things in different way so I

was interested in all those things um

and then um I think uh so you know what

sticks then of course when you go to

school you know if you're good at

something your great should show right

so so I did well in school right I me

but your school was architecture only

right yeah but you know I mean but the

interesting thing about Cornell is that

you know in the American system you you

can do a undergrad but you know you do

all these elective right right and in

the way sometimes you could even make up

your own subjects and all that right but

yes very much right uh but but the

architecture school there was also very

different it wasn't just

about helping you create a formal

building I remember asking a professor

one time because I didn't know how tall

a do was and I was like I was in review

and I said you know is it important that

we figure out some of these technical

things he's like MK we're not here to

make you to teach you about architecture

we teach we're here to teach you how to

think about architecture

he says you figure out how tall the doll

is later so so it's just a way of

helping you think right differently but

obviously school is a good um uh gives

you a good sense about how what kind of

skills you have so so clearly that then

of course when you start in your

professional life you know if you find

some success in what you do then you

kind of figure out you have a knck for

it so that just came with you know a

number of projects I did that just won a

number of awards and you know it got

some public recognition right so I think

those things sort of like affirm you and

then of course the other one is that in

spite of all those things does does it

give you Joy because I think that Joy

would just compel you and you're not

doing it because of other people but

you're doing it because you genuinely

like it and I think when you genuinely

are interested in something you would

just kind of like pay more attention to

it right so so I think that's what maybe

validated meh and um yeah I mean I don't

know I mean my my my wife always says

that she very found it very unusual that

her husband always liked what he did

because you know she's used to sometimes

just you know um something you just get

a job to pay the bills right you do it

out Duty yeah so so I've just come to

realize over time that fortunately or

not I would I could only do something I

like I couldn't do something I don't

like so yeah so just think about you

know you know uh how did you know early

were you good at it yeah just came in

the territory of just how I live live my

life yeah and that's the interesting

thing if I I kind of like draw a bell

curve there's a very small percentage of

people that cannot do work that they

don't feel that uh lights them up yeah

very small percentage of people I don't

yeah I

because what I see is more of like um

our our grandparents time our parents

time we do it our duty we do it to

provide so so there is a different

reason why we do work to provide and

work is just a certain output and and we

get input with salary that's it but

there's a very small group of people who

cannot take that it's almost that their

life will shatter if their entire life

was just all about that that's was a

tough question and especially in

expensive Singapore right yes because I

mean to be really honest some I mean the

life of a creative or architect or you

know even as a designer in general is

not like uh alive in finance right but I

think

so I do ask myself oh you know if I had

pursued something else would I have made

more money but I think it's about

playing the long game and you know I

think I've you know I think

professionally I've just been really

fortunate to still you know you know I

guess find some some success and

fulfiling at the same time and yeah I'm

just fortunate that way right but it's

it's it's a tough call in Singapore it

is it is and so that's why uh so

sometimes I I say uh follow uh try to

find your call Follow Your Passion try

to figure that out and a lot of the

comments would be like we have no time

for that you a rich kid you like you're

delusional and um so these are the

comments that usually people have and I

understand where they're coming from

because they're coming from practicality

is that yeah you have the luxury because

your father is some somebody or you have

uh a big mountain behind you that kind

of thing but but I I start to now see

that that actually there are some people

who either there is aou greater group

that has just given up or and there a

also a greater bigger group where it's

just that it's okay that that is that is

duty is fine and duty is enough yeah so

I I think sometimes people just saying

that oh you know you have a bigger

safety net because you're well off and

all that I think it's I mean it's a half

truth but the truth is that it's also a

kind of

like I think it's a bit of unfair kind

of like call out because I know many

people who don't have that safety net

but

have been true to themselves and found

success yeah right I

mean I told you my grandma gave me all

her money to go to school so it's not

like I had a huge safety net right I

just had a very fortunate good education

right and I you know I found my own way

I mean I know some other great friends

who have sort of Taken sort of big risk

and sacrifice and then you know it's

paid off and I think it's also about an

attitude of a you know who am I what do

you feel that you are called or you have

you feel that you know there's something

in you that you need to to to express

yeah and then at least giving yourself

the shot right I mean sure you could

parameter these things right so I'm

going to try this thing for a year and

then after that I'll reassess whatever

but at least give yourself a shot so you

don't live in regret right the worst is

just knowing that you have this feeling

that you're meant to try something and

you never try and that just guts you

right and I think that's probably I

think people who allow that to happen

will probably be the poorer of others

who at least tried and then at least uh

knew for themselves yeah so there was

one I see where I can find it there was

one

um um a book about um five regrets of

the dying and this is um a nurse uh

called uh Bonnie wear and She

interviewed all the people who had only

3 months to live wow and the first

regret for the dying and this is in

Australia I wish I had the courage to

live a life true to myself not the life

others expected of me yeah I tell you

and that is the number one regret of

these people who had three months to

live and second one is I wish I had

worked so hard and all that but the

first one is the the courage to live a

life true to myself what is your take on

that I tell you I

mean it's painful yeah so I mean like I

said I've been very fortunate to in many

ways kind of found a way to make a

career where I'm also able to kind of

like you know creatively express myself

hopefully make an income from it and

also feel that I'm making an impact but

I also I mean when you when you

mentioned that I just kind of help by

think about some people I know

who have not allowed themselves that and

regret so years ago I I mean I used to

have a a doctor I would go to right for

my health right uh she was um yeah and I

wouldn't I wouldn't name her but

but she was a very well-known doctor

extremely well-known famous sort of had

a clinic in like you know Mount

Elizabeth and all that right and you

know clearly was ticked off the boxes

ticked all the boxes all the boxes

doctor specialist made a heck a lot of

money money you know I'll go to you know

this person for checkup and then we

became friends right and then one day

she said you know what M I hate my job

oh wow I did this because my parents

told me to study it wow and I'm pretty

good at it but I hate it every day and

I'm like wow dude I mean think about

that on the outside that person would

look like she had the perfect life she

had the [ __ ] everything's good

everything was there I mean like right

she was I mean but imagine living that

and then yet just really hating it yeah

I mean you know I mean which is

who's are you successful after that are

you not it's tough you know yeah you

might be SU successful materially but

you don't even enjoy what you do and yet

you feel like you can't stop yeah and

then versus others who might you know

might be doing something they enjoy you

know obviously there's a certain

minimum um livelihood we need for basic

needs and also there's a lot of research

that says that actually what you need is

beyond basic needs anything else is

really this right there a kind of

question to how much kind of like

utility gives you yeah who are happy

yeah right and you know and it really

makes me sort of just really fortunate

to at least feel that at least I've been

true to myself and you know found found

some success in that and the interesting

thing for you is like from buildings to

like last time skateboard t uh t-shirts

and all that and now you're going to

people's lives where you're designning

helping hoping to help people to design

their lives and this is your Design Your

Life Institute so when you start this

and all that wearing your designer hat

what do you hope that people when they

go into this design your life Institute

what do you hope that they walk out yeah

so I mean as you know the design your

life Institute um you know uh I found it

with Bill berett it's really based on

the the work he's done uh over the last

almost 20 years at Stanford uh being in

charge of the design program there yeah

uh being a Pioneer in design thinking

and applying that into uh elective

called the design your life elective uh

to for the students where they would be

able to learn design thinking

principles uh understand what a design

mindset was and be able to apply it to

what we call the most difficult project

of all your life right yeah you can

apply engineering mindset to it you can

apply a sort of like other so so that I

mean and then and obviously the book of

the same name sort of sold a million

copies 25 languages so when I got to

know Bill a couple about maybe two years

ago I you know at design Singapore I had

heard so much about the program right

and uh you know that I had asked him hey

would you run a program here for online

just during co uh just for you know for

for for people in government and people

within the education system and things

like that so it really stuck and um and

because of that you know there's just

been there was a we discussed about

setting up an Institute here and so that

we could really kind of get these tools

in the hands of everyone in society

right so um so for me it's I wouldn't

say full circle but basically we're

still true to ourselves as being design

Educators and design thinking and being

sort of just passionate about design

thinking and see who see the um impact

that uh design mindset could have but I

think we're bringing it into the

most to people in the most investable

way I'm not asking you to work on it as

some sort of like outside problem or on

how to drive innovation in your compan

some case study all right no I'm like

everyone is investing their own lives

yes and we feel that these tools and we

have so much research to back it that

you know it will really unlock something

for people so what we're hoping to do is

that I we've seen the data right I mean

there's so much um there we have a

pretty unhappy Workforce High

disengagement rate high sort of quiet

quitting and I mean I mean in my late

40s I've been meeting so many friends of

mine in mid Korea who some have been

retrenched some have been stuck some

know that if they hang around in their

in their if they stick around in their

jws and they go past their early 50s

they might be retrenched and then they

there's no there's no way out or if they

need to Pivot they just don't know how

to do that yeah so interesting because

Singapore uh being wealthy and first

world yeah seems like we are losing that

uh that that fulfillment meaning purpose

it's almost like a uh we hope that it

will not go down that soless

Society but yet um the studies and the

research about like Singapore being

unhappy one of the unhappiest Nations

engagement down um yeah it affects us

yeah so you it seems like you're trying

to almost like do some nation

building you're still you're still part

of the nation building but just outside

of design Singapore yes I mean someone

in the uh someone I respect in the

public service before I left uh uh you

know who you are gave me a very very

good advice she says uh she said uh you

could be of uh bigger impact and you

could be of Greater Public Service

without being in the public service

right uh but I mean yeah so Bill and I

were really trying to cause a cultural

shift here right um we want to hit 20%

because that's the Tipping Point 20%

people in sing people in sing so we did

our math that's probably we just need

about maybe what I don't know about 1.5

million 1.5 million right minus babies

and all that right but um but really I

think we we feel so strongly that um

people here are yearning for for for for

possibilities yes and and in a way they

kind of need to be bold and courageous

again to need to have their creativity

sparked again because that would bring a

life and a joy that we don't have and

it's so sad because we are such a model

country and we're such a miracle to the

rest of world and in a way kind of we

are prosperous but yet our soul may not

be prosperous and and that's really what

we want to do and what we feel is that

if people are engaged uh they able to

move from a mindset of fear to one of a

one of sort of like uh um um excitement

and joy and abundance this view of like

okay you know what if something doesn't

work I'm not going to think and wallow

about it but I have I can create new

possibilities myself I think that would

just be so powerful yeah and that's

really what we want to just bring the

Singapore and we want to show that so we

have a I mean we even have a Tik Tok

channel right but basically we want to

talk about this but we also want to have

more stories about people who have taken

the program and found success just to

inspire other people that you know what

you can live an abundant life and a

creative life yeah so do you think that

this because this sounds like a major

project right so for you um I believe

that sometimes for for passion I believe

that there's also the whole idea of

values that we we have what values do

you think you are living out from not

only from the design You' have done long

time ago to now was there a consistent

value that you felt that uh this this is

what I'm living

out I mean obviously based on my

strength finder profile I mean there's

certain values that just sort of come up

from that I mean I value innovation I

value originality

creativity uh you know uh those things

right but I think for the for the

Institute something that really kind of

touches on my own personal values is I

actually believe that people are given

gifts Y and they have a purpose on this

world MH and you know I think uh you

know I I think that God's just given us

unique gifts yeah and and you know we

are created for a certain Destiny yes

and I think it is in the human heart of

everyone to want to find fulfillment in

what they do yeah uh and to also want to

be able to express how they were made I

mean it was that amazing sort of um that

quote from charot Of Fire right uh

there's a guy who was running and he

just said you know like uh God made me

fast and then when I when I when I run

right I feel his pleasure right yeah I

mean it's kind of like that I mean you

know just idea of that people are made

uniquely and they want to express

themselves and if they can find a way to

express that the world would benefit yes

and they will also find joy and I and I

think with the Institute we're just

trying to find a way to give people that

confidence and the tools that they can

actually that everyone has a right to be

able to design a meaningful and

purposeful life it doesn't mean that

everyone's just going to quit their job

and be a scuba diver and B no right but

it's really that they can design their

life and sometimes their job is really

just to be able to provide for the

family and that's already meaning by

itself but then they find creative

expression in something else it doesn't

matter right but I think that's really

the heart of me and Bill and trying to

drive this institute and it's a

nonprofit by the way that's really why

we we we we did it intentionally so that

we could really kind of drive this as a

national movement all right so where can

people find more

information uh so obviously a website uh

designing your life. Institute uh uh Tik

Tok Channel D um I mean Instagram

LinkedIn uh we've got it all there and

obviously um uh yeah just find us uh uh

just hook me up on LinkedIn uh um so you

going to have more uh workshops or

anything yeah so we have some workshops

coming up uh uh go to our website and

just uh put your name there for to be on

the sort of alert list but we have uh

designing your life uh career 1.0 for uh

uh early year in at work and also a

midcareer workshop and another men's

workshop and a women's Workshop coming

up in the end of September and early

October uh this year and many more to

come I mean we hope to be able to get a

real regular rhythm of uh programs and

public workshops happening uh in

2024 onwards and this is this thing is

here to stay man right all right I I I

missed out the last one I'll go for the

next one design your life uh this thing

is here to stay

yeah so thank you so much Mark for your

time here and uh for those who uh really

want to be able to start to use design

thinking principles uh in your life

check them out and um I do believe in

purposeful living and um it's been a

great pleasure talking to you thanks

thanks man super

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