TRANSCRIPT
Unveiling Insider HR Secrets - Neil Yang | The CJH Podcast EP18
*Captions are taken directly from YouTube and may not be 100% accurate
[Music]
try all right so welcome everybody to
another podcast and today we have Neil
Young here Neil thank you for being here
thanks for having me okay A little bit
of introduction for everybody at home
what do you do and what kind of like
things have you been doing sure hi
everybody uh my name is Neil Yang um I
have worked in HR for a significant part
of my career uh my most recent role was
with grab where I headed up the groups
uh campus Recruitment and early careers
uh programs so used to be the global hit
yeah for for for all the uh the 12
countries that was in okay um prior to
that I used to work in finance in a
regional uh function for Barley's Bank
where I hired for the markets early
career space and then I was a program
manager and recruiter for uh the cross
franchise M program at City uh prior to
that and uh yeah so that's that's that's
been a huge um engaging Journey that
I've been on and also allow me to see
you a little bit more often and enjoy
the conversations that we always have
yeah yeah we usually do uh career fast
for our Elma MAA right so Neil um
interesting that your career spent all
the way from interviewing people to now
like also like uh teaching people
workshops and all that and but it's all
in the early career space um my question
and what I'm curious about is that if
somebody let's say if somebody is going
for uh interviews right that means they
finished their career uh finished their
education they're going for interviews
um in your experience what really stands
out yeah I I think it's it's a couple of
things right um when we interview people
we're obviously not doing it because hey
we want to have a conversation have
coffee on the company and have a chat
right it's not it's not just a CH chat
right I think it's really about trying
to figure out whether the person that we
see in front of us when we're
interviewing we can see them in the role
that we want to hire them to right so I
think there's a couple of aspects there
um to an extent when we bring people in
for an interview we assume that you know
they're bright that they are fairly
familiar with with things but I think
what really makes a difference is in two
ways right and broadly Under the
Umbrella of just general awareness and
knowledge so firstly they're aware of
themselves right so they know their
strengths they know what they should be
working on and they're able to share
about how they are working on it and in
a way you know they're able to say like
hey you know I have these strengths I
have these weaknesses but as a package I
am the right fit for the job that you
are are hiring for at the moment on the
other hand there's also knowing the
company and sort of generally the
industry and the kind of things that
happen in the job that you're applying
for so you know if you're able to speak
sort of the lingual right you understand
certain terms um you go online you read
the news you see that in Tech
everybody's talking about generative AI
cat GPT everybody's favorite thing to
talk about at the moment right yeah and
you able to I suppose have the second
level beyond the clickbaity headline of
chat GPT is going to take everybody's
jobs right to be able to articulate what
you bring almost that goes beyond what
it what LGBT can do for example right um
and you know I think when people speak
to candidates hiring managers talk to uh
young person and they find like hey
actually this is conversation that I
might have when I have with my team then
we're far more likely to say yeah I
think this person could be the right fit
now to be able to do that in an
interview and maybe I'm jumping a little
bit ahead but um it's really important
that you spend time sort of cultivating
that understanding both of yourself as
well as of the subject matter the
industry the company the team that
you're applying too right right so so I
got a question for this when you uh see
somebody in there and you ask them about
the company and the interview it's like
hey um what some of the questions you
ask them to see whether they have done
their research on the company and the
interview and the industry I think it's
it's it's not necessarily that we will
ask a question right it's not like we
say like hey tell me what you read about
us in the news but it may be that hey
we'll say like we'll be talking about
maybe a challenge that they faced in the
past right and maybe the question is
about when you had to learn a skill very
quickly and then it maybe is up to the
candidate to sort of bring in like hey
you know one of the other things I've
had to learn recently is data analytics
right because even though I'm applying
to a non-technical job um I see that the
future is data the ability to tell
stories in a quantitative way is really
really important and you know if you're
on if if the the hiring team is living
this reality every day and they're like
hey this guy knows or this this lady
knows what he or she is talking about
and the fact that he or she is learning
some of that stuff it almost like look
smell and taste like the kind of person
that we want to be right on on our desk
okay so so it's almost like uh whatever
the opportunities that pose to you and
they ask a question you want to be able
to quickly Point them to relevance of
what you've been doing either studying
something learning something new or
being very enthusiastic about this
industry and the company or whatever the
company is doing so you're trying of
it's almost like you're sneakily trying
to weave in that hey I'm the guy I do
this uh I do this most of the time I've
been researching on that and all that
right there something along the line and
and unfortunately this is like almost a
it's almost a hiding in plain sight kind
of tip right that you know unfortunately
many young people when when they
interview they're like hey tell me about
this and you talk about you know it's
great thing that you've done you but
nothing and then you don't you don't
take the last step right and like just
like close it out and Link it to the job
that you're actually applying for which
is so important right because then you
know that's that's the recenty effect
you know interviewer at the end of the
interview they remember the last thing
that you said or after a question as you
respond they will anchor on to the last
thing that you said and if the last
thing that you said links it back to the
job that you're applying for and
authentically clearly right don't
pretend that hey you know I did all this
stuff and that's why I'm good for the
job and then like they ask you again
another question then you realize that
oh the house of cuts crumbles right but
if you're talking authentically to it if
if it's your live reality then you know
it it it it grounds it for the
interviewer then they it's very easy for
interviewer to say yeah you know Jason
we had a conversation wow he really keep
on talking about the stuff that actually
matters to me and so let's put him
through the next round or let's make him
an offer we really can't wait to have
him on board m so interesting so when
when people go for interviews they if
you ask for a they give a but for a
person who is smart in an interview you
ask for a you give exactly the kind of
like the role that oh I'm going to be
answering in a way that the person in
the role would have answered that means
I've been doing this and all that so we
want to be able to almost tweak it in a
way that they uh that makes it extremely
relevant to them and we are doing the
job as the interviewer interiew rather
we let the interviewer try to link it we
link it for you and you be like okay
since you link it you kind of like know
what we're talking about yeah it almost
becomes a nice framework right because
you know the interviews that you
typically get at a junior level
sometimes 20 minutes sometimes 30
minutes at most they push you to 45
minutes right um and so if you have the
ability to be very concise and like if
it almost becomes a signpost you know
I've done this this this this this I
know that in this job there's going to
be the need to talk very broadly to
different set sets of people and I've
done that and you know this is how I
would approach it when I come into this
job because I've done it in the past
then for the interview it's like okay
question answered verus sometimes there
this very awkward like oh so I did this
I did this I did this then like you look
at the interviewer interview looks at
you and the interviewer got like okay
question actually interview one to so so
what so basically so what to me because
I'm hiring you for this role exactly
okay so if if let's say um then it
presupposes that before the interview I
need to do a lot of research yeah
right and and how would I let's say I
finished my degree done my internships
and know I finished my degree and I'm
going to be applying for your company um
what steps if you were to put yourself
in my shoes what steps would you take to
try to research as much as possible yeah
great question I mean look there's
there's so much resource today right um
you have a network this may comprise of
your seniors in school who you may have
you know worked with you you have
working friendship with them um your ex
internship um hiring managers yeah just
informly leaders that you've come across
in the past yeah it does require you to
take the time and say like hey would
love to meet you for coffee just want to
talk about stuff I'm not asking for
anything from you um just would like to
catch up and to get some thoughts right
um the ability I supposed to reach out
and say like hey would you be part of my
more my my broaden network so that I'm
more prepared and I can leverage your
knowledge I think it's something that's
always a little bit uncomfortable when
you're at the start of your career cuz
you feel like hey I have nothing to
offer yeah have nothing yeah but
actually there are a lot of times where
you know as folks who are experience we
are actually learning from The Young
Ones as well right um we are learning
perspectives we are learning
you know you could be talking to them
and saying like hey you know you know
prior to qan on this year nobody really
knew about cat GPT but you know if you
had been keeping an eye on it you've
been following the news and you brought
it up then when eventually it comes out
like oh yeah Jason told me about this
half a year ago already right so then I
again have a positive impression of you
because like you're almost ahead of the
curve so you know sort of investing in
investing time and energy in some of
these conversations is really important
and you know one of the best times to do
that is actually when you're doing your
internships right
um when I was when I was a junior one of
the things that one of the seniors told
me was what you do from whatever times 9
to 5 for example right that's that's
your work but what you do after five
that's your career you're building your
career and you know what that may entail
is you know meeting somebody for a
coffee chat yeah um or dinner or drinks
anything right I mean many companies now
have what they call like uh interest
groups right so you know coffee Sports
uh Tech so C almost like C right and
those are great opportunities for you to
meet people in a very nonwork context
and you can ask them like hey so what do
you do yeah and when the time comes
where you know you have a question and
you remember hey actually I met that guy
while we were jamming together he's a
data scientist and this question I have
is a little bit in that realm why don't
I just ping him and ask and the data
scientist guy John for example let's
call him John is more willing to answer
my question because you know we jamm
together or we went for a drink together
so having some of these connections uh
what they call the the weak tie
connections is really really important
what is weak
time um I think weak and weak and strong
yeah so weak and strong right so you
know when we think about networking a
lot people think like w I must like I go
for for networking session I meet Jason
yeah must ask everything about Jason
Jason how many children you have what's
your dog's name what's your address like
what's your blood type right that's
really not too much it's to much too
soon that's not what networking is about
it's not like Jason can give me a job
hey I really want to do this in the
future you got a job you call me right
it's not what it is it is really sort of
like I learn something about you you
learn something about me maybe we
connect on LinkedIn maybe in two or
three weeks time I see an article that
relates to what we talking about I ping
it to you on link and say like hey we
were talking about this like thought you
might find this interesting with no
expectation of a reply right and so
you've created effectively a weak tie
right right right which when the time
comes to to call upon it um you know
you're going to be able to say like hey
Jason I just want to ask you something
yeah you know you have all you have all
these friends right who are like hey can
I bring you out for coffee and you're
like last time I was last time I was fa
I was fa every so because as an fa you
need to do that right you need to start
off there and then it's like hey it's
actually and and it's the same thing
even as fa we trained that is actually
just have a conversation and just just
re rebuild it and if you want to you can
have it on the second conversation uh
because if you actually go in into it
and this is actually taught for us you
know if we're going to have a coffee we
don't talk about it even though it is
let's say it's one of the agendas that
you want to be able to help that person
out in their finances you don't talk
about in the first meeting y you make it
a clean cut that this is really a
catchup if you really want to let's do
another meeting so it makes it very the
gender very clear it's not like hey you
know because then you get The cringy
Stereotype right like oh then then it's
almost a selfing fulfilling prophecy
because like then you think why would
this person help me because I'm not
talking to them I suddenly come and ask
them for stuff so then don't let that
happen let it be a case where this
person like knows you like if I say to
somebody hey you know Jason ho yeah yeah
yeah I know him like you know whatever
right yeah um rather than Jason which
Jason yeah uh so you're visible
basically you're visible and you're
you're above the water so that people
can kind of see you rather than you're
just in your own cave just hope that
your resume will do everything exactly I
mean because people hire people I don't
day yes and and I I forgot what
statistics but it's alarming uh amount
of people who are hired because of
relationships rather than actually going
through the entire process it's just one
phone call and like somebody opens up
and if you think about it it's almost
like preting now yes it should not be a
case and I think companies are
intentionally trying to get away from
like oh I went to ABC uh IV League
school I went to a
certain dashed
school for for secondary school and JC
so therefore I know this guy so I just
hire him right no I think that's not
what we're saying what we're saying is
you know if I know somebody and I've
witnessed their growth I've witnessed
their Journey oh I know their attitude I
work them on a project somewhere then I
can say like hey if we need this person
this the right guy to go to right or
right lady to go to right so um I it
doesn't surprise me I mean in terms of
quality of hire very frequently within
the companies we find that stuff get
getting stuff stuff referring other
people who they've worked with in the
past you know engagement is higher
performance is better everything because
they are vetted what you say like I I I
won't probably refer somebody that I
know that I won't be able to work with
or I kind of like know this person's
character is a little bit questionable y
it's a prescreen right and so you know
you want to in a sense create luck for
yourself by being pre-screened by as
many people as possible so what you're
actually saying is that it's almost a
principle of life that even so I was
just talking to one somebody who was in
FA just now over lunch and he was saying
I was we were just talking like you know
like fa and property can do very well in
Singapore you don't need a degree right
and he's saying that actually the degree
helped me a lot with my a career because
of what network so it's almost the idea
that for us um as we grow in our career
we need to overweight our network if we
don't know anything else we kind of just
overweight and kind of like build
connections with people don't be a
Hermit and just be in your cave yeah uh
try to be uh involved in different parts
and involved in different parts means
also authenticity if I'm interested in
this CC then I join it then it shows
that authenticity then it comes like the
fire rubs fire it it creates that flame
yeah and it's almost then that network
is going to be helping you in your
future Y and what you're talking about
is that um when we give a certain like
oh LinkedIn oh we saw this we give it to
you and all that that is social Capal
that Social Capital that we always
depositing in people and and in a team I
do share this that if you look in
everybody's everybody and then you see
everybody's forehead then some there's a
there's a there's a amount of money
Social Capital that you actually invest
and for those with zero and you ask them
something they'll be like sorry
according to company policy I can't help
you but for those has there has 10,000
100,000 inside because you have invested
invested by helping them invested by um
being just a nice friend and all that
they'll be like yeah Neil for you no
problem man yeah I mean it's like the
force right like I mean obviously
there's a dark side of the force right
there a dark side of the force and I
think it's it's important to balance
that we all know people who like name
drop and they want to lean on their
Network a little bit too much and and I
think that put some people off building
big right because then I know that
you're going to do that to me yeah
exactly
so you know if if you have capability
you ability you have attitude yeah you
know if you have equal amounts of all of
those things compared two people right
so equal ability potential uh attitude
the one with the network will be able to
get stuff done faster right because like
he he knows who he or she knows who to
call on exactly and that then translates
to faster progression yeah and and
because he this person with the network
most likely if he it does it well he's
genuine about it and genuiness is also
the principle of love I do something to
you without any form of return that you
need to give it to me yeah it doesn't
matter it doesn't matter I'll just do it
for you and that that love or that that
ability to do things for others also
help him to open up almost like six Lane
highways that means like for this person
it's a six Lane Highway and while the
other person has no network won't know
how to do that and next time when he's
trying to do something in the career
it's going to be tough as well yeah I
mean it it'll be tougher right you have
to work harder you have to do more but
you're also you're also discounting this
whole idea of human interactions and and
if you discount human interactions or
human dynamics inside a work then you
are you're left with what just the work
that you do and actually that's not
what's going to get you ahead yeah and
especially I think for people who are
coming into the working the workforce at
the moment I mean we've gone through a
crazy past X number of years with coid
right um everybody works from home you
know there was none of the water cooler
talk Etc now I don't you know we
shouldn't go all the way and say like or
should gossip at water cooler all the
time but there's certain amount of
benefit yes
um Adam gr calls it um Collective
effervescence you know I see in the
office walking to the lift hey how are
you what you doing oh I'm working on
this x thing like hey I'm working on y
actually there's a something that we can
work there is the middle ground
why don't we exchange some resource like
we can share some information notes
research and all that and as a result
both X and Y improve now I know I love
work from home as much as the next guy
right but it's very hard for some of
this stuff to happen yeah unless you're
almost physically present like I can
look you in the eye I can get a sense of
you know who you are it's almost
authenticity right I'm more inclined to
trust you because I see you in person
then and you know you can try doing Zoom
networking drinks we we tried right we
tried during Co right you just with no
no alternative it was better than
nothing better than nothing but like pH
yeah and so it almost comes back to the
thing I was saying right you know there
that's your 9 to5 like you'll be given
assignments you'll be given projects
there's work that you need to do but if
you do that 100% even 120% all you're
doing is showing that you can do work
yeah you're not investing in what comes
next in your career almost right um and
nobody can force you to do that um
ideally you do it and there some return
and then you keep doing it yeah my
experience has been that's the case
right you you sometimes you learn more
hanging out with you know managers who
are one two ranks above you then looking
at data sets and like you know going
through training because they are able
to give you that sense of like hey you
know during the the global financial
crisis you know there was this situation
and this is how we dealt with it so the
next time when similar things come up
high interest rates again right oh okay
I I can sort of join the dots and it
just makes you more knowledgeable and
the knowledge that you have almost forms
the Bedrock of innovation yeah because
if you don't know you can't you can't
turn the cube and say like oh how do I
look at it from different angle right if
you don't have the cube yeah and
sometimes getting this Cube as a junior
means investing time in having
conversations I like the idea that when
you you learn so much more from somebody
else and and I think the main
perspective is that you are you are
learning the it's almost like Brand's
essence of chicken even though Brands
you didn't sponsor this right right but
if you want to but if you want to
contact
my down below 100 anyway um so the the
essence of U the the immense problem
that you had comes down to a framework
or principle and that person has seen
that principle and you are taking that
principle so you don't have to go
through that 80% you go through that 20%
that's why we learn faster from people
because that hang on yeah but this the
issue is different because of this
variable and that's the beautiful thing
about networking we can see it as
learning and to some people who don't
really like networking and they see it
as some some people do see it as like
why am I wasting my time or why am I
using people if you see it as learning
and trying to give knowledge to other
people then it's a little bit more
pritable to a lot of people
right so coming back when it comes to uh
understanding the knowledge of the
industry talking to people definitely
reading up on everything else is there
anything else that a person can
do I think there's something to be said
about trying to get experience so let's
say you want to work in digital
marketing or you want to do data science
or engineering software engineering
whatever it is right I mean there's
there's tons
of competitions there's tons of um you
know hackathons and stuff like that that
you can try participate again nobody is
saying that W you know if you don't do
well for this one you must put on your
CV oh I came in 149 out 150 nobody is
saying that but you need to invest in
that as well right so and it shows
attitude it shows attitude that hey
actually if with nothing I'll be
resourceful yeah and you look this is
this is also something that we look for
right we looking for people who know how
to fail as well and For Whom the failure
is not the terminal state right it's
like oh okay I didn't do it so well this
time but never mind I pick myself up I
try again right and maybe the next time
I'm not 149th I come in 120th right and
the of course the the ideal story is wow
I do it a few times the next one like at
some point I become first right but for
some people you know maybe 50th is the
max you can reach yeah and if that's the
case then at least know that right like
hey I put in 100% I know that maybe I'm
never going to be a superstar rockar
kind of computer engineer but now I have
some of this skill set what are the
adjacent roles to that maybe product
maybe um program management that I can
think about because I understand some of
the technicalities relating to uh
engineering right or coding or whatever
right so you you at least in the
industry you you got your hands wet you
got your feet wet and then you are you
might not be it might be this role that
you're playing but you actually did the
hackaton in here but because you're in
that family you know the language and
you know that okay this correlates to
this but it's Downstream two two points
and things like that so you are still
trying and the beautiful thing that I
think if I see somebody who has tried a
lot of things is that this person has
the attitude that we want y yeah and
like you know I think being able to show
progress you know everybody talks about
how we are having a paradigm shift in
the past practice makes perfect right
when we grew up in as kids practice
makes perfect so go practice your maths
I think we are realizing that it's more
practice makes progress right I want to
see that you have the ability to keep
going back to it every time you learn
something you're getting better right
regardless of whether it's coding
regardless of whether it's interpersonal
relationships whether it's regards to
communication you know whatever sort of
career skills might apply in the modern
world if you keep trying and obviously
you know then talk to people see how you
can improve talk to your you know people
who you're working with who you're
working for and they give you input
right then you will see that progress
right and maybe you don't get the you
know shiny star job that you won your
first job but you you know you take a
step in that direction and you
incrementally make your way you know one
of the things that they always say is
cream always Rises to the top right so
if you're good at something eventually
you will get recognized if you keep at
it yeah broadly speaking and so you know
just that keep on keeping on attitude is
really really important especially early
in your career because you know I
wouldn't say that you know you said that
you know nothing I don't think is that
you know nothing right is that you have
a particular knowledge set that may or
may not be fully applicable in the real
world and you need somebody you know you
have the the stone you have the raw
material is sort of cheap so like
Michelangelo look like Michelangelo
David and you need somebody you need
experiences to away so that you get to
that final product right which which is
what people will value super highly true
true I I like to say that when you are
young uh you have high levels of energy
but zero experience or low experience
and you want to be able to trade as much
energy as possible for experience and
experience is doing ccas asking for more
opportunities in your internship always
be the first one to raise your hand and
says let me try it out or quietly behind
try it out and says hey yesterday when
you had that problem uh this this is
what I research on you're like wow great
and you're trading the energy that you
have for experience and that's the only
thing that we can do so for for people
early in their careers don't be afraid
to work like crazy because it is it is
what you need at that point in time and
after a while you can start to
specialize but at this point in time be
as sponge right as hungry as possible
and don't afraid to be wrong because as
a hiring manager I would rather you try
and be wrong than you came up with a 100
reasons why didn't want to try right
yeah because if you try and you're wrong
and we can together figure out where you
where along the chain you did something
that in a sense got this wrong answer
yeah we can work on that but if you
didn't try and you say oh you know but
because it's so hard I don't want to go
and talk to this person this person very
difficult to find you've not sort of
pushed hard enough against it right very
difficult for me to say like okay let's
work together to bring I'll come back
I'll come back to the first thing let's
go and try right just try first yeah
because moving and the car is not moving
very hard to turn yeah right I mean I I
I accept that not every environment is
in a sense forgiving of failing right I
mean but I think an increasing number of
managers today recognize that especially
with the young employees interns or
fresh grads yeah we almost expect that
you're going to fail yeah right um we
don't want you to fail we want to set
you up for success but we have it in
mind that there's going to be you know
you you wouldn't see something that most
of us would see because you don't have
that experience and you come up with
something different and that's okay so
now let's explain or you know you
shouldn't have done it this way because
you're opening the company to a huge
amount of risk whether Financial
reputational Etc so therefore this is
the reason why we do it a different way
and you may say like hey actually I hear
what you're saying I think we can tweak
what I've done so that we manage for
that risk but we still get the benefits
of What I've Done Right and that's
that's when I think hiring manager is
like wow well done right because for
many of us you know there's baggage from
the past and there's also bandwith right
we we can look at some of this stuff but
when interns or fresh grads are able to
come in and say like hey I tried this
thing
differently let's post on social media
like let's run a Tik Tok uh campaign and
you know the hiring man say oh but you
know we not done that in the past
because you know we're very worried of
this this and this and and you're ready
to say like okay maybe not Tik Tok
maybe a bit lame alternative maybe like
LinkedIn right something like that or
your focus group with 50 other friends
that you have yeah right whatever it is
that but at least it shows um progress
it shows that you've done something yeah
and you're hustling you know because we
want to see that um you are growing yes
right and I think increasingly companies
you know we have coming back to an
interview like we have an idea of what
are the what's the idea candidate we
want right like in terms of who would
absolutely kill it in a role yeah the
reality is
that in you know in the past people will
look for five things five things super
good let's go right if I cannot find
this five things I don't want to higher
I think now we are realizing hey
actually if it's three or four things
but of the fourth and the fifth thing
you are super Keen right you are able to
learn you are not afraid to make
mistakes within reason
mhm the chances are that I'm going to
get an end product at the end of a good
company's sort of program with you if
this person the five things yeah they
come in and do those five things and
like oh
great 100% meets yeah versus if you're
willing to grow very often you find that
this person gets to 120 and the guy who
came in with five things is still at the
five things because like you know he or
she thinks that they can already do it
so therefore they don't push as hard to
learn more right right so you're you're
almost saying that also the idea of
showing some vulnerability in interview
or in a resume uh and some some of the
failures can actually be a good point
because it shows your tenacity and shows
that's that Spirit of like
the that fighting spirit and that
sometimes um that sometimes is what uh
we as a person hiring we want to see
that you have failed but you've tried
and yes uh you have you know the reasons
why you fail and you know how to
mitigate that so that kind of looks like
even though it's three plus two lower
things it kind of looks like these two
look good really good right now because
you are self-aware yeah which is what
you talked about just now is about
self-awareness and I'm interested to
know curious also about how do you think
somebody who is new um to the job market
how do they increase self-
awareness I think very often we s of so
there's there's two ways to look at this
uh there are two personas one is
actually you sort of know yourself
already like you know you know you wake
up in the morning if you have to do
certain things you're just very excited
you could have two hours of sleep but
you know you're very excited to go and
do it because you know that once you get
there it's going to be like super fun
and super engaging and you know it may
be a bit challenging there may be
obstacles but you're really looking
forward to it but you go to the
interview room suddenly like uh don't
know what to say yeah and in those cases
it's about getting the vocabulary to
express right and you can prepare for
that right if you if you think like if
somebody ask you like what are your
strengths and you're like I have no idea
what my strengths are right they they
are commercially available assessments
for you to get a sense of what your
strengths are obviously don't just spit
out the same thing right you know it
gives you the material the framework by
which you can think about what these
strengths are which helps you to
communicate it better to your
interviewers right then there's a so
that's the first Persona the second
Persona is somebody who actually doesn't
know their strength because they've not
pushed it hard enough right um for those
folks I think you know it's really about
getting out there right and try and
silence the the you know the there's on
on The Muppet Show there's a two uncles
who sit at the the gallery and you can't
do
it the inner Skeptics the inner right
you to try and silence that and say you
know what I'm going to try right um it's
funny uh when when I the first time I
went snowboarding mhm
everybody's like noing what it's going
to be very cool right I'm like go up the
hill go up the slopes and I'm going to
come down right yeah I got stuck at the
bun slope and I didn't what is bunny
slope the bunny slope is like the
beginner slope literally children
literally like it's like that and like
it's yeah almost everybody seven out
eight seven out of 10 people were kids
with yeah I didn't even get St coming
down the slope I got St going up the
slope because the idea is that they have
this lift you put it you s cap it in
between pushes you up pulls you up right
I fell down there like stuck there for
like maybe half an hour and the
instructor was like wow you're really
tenacious you keep going at it So
eventually I got up right and then then
you had the fun right but you know I
could at that point at that point say
like ah you know forget it I you know
this Belgian waffles and hot chocolate
is more sh right I'm just going to hang
out there and wait my um I do feel like
putting yourself in situations where you
know we when we talk about inner skeptic
where you you're learning to tell them
hey I'm not going to listen to you yeah
you have to find some of these
situations in life where the staks are
lower yeah Stakes of like emotional
health as well as physical health so
like obviously don't like in a skeptic
oh I'm going to go like do bouldering
without a without
harness please don't do that you need to
start finding things like for me running
is my thing like I I I'm not a runner
like my natural body shape is not for
running mhm but once in a while I will
get myself back into the routine of you
know let's go run right just so that I
get used to that feeling of like your
body is telling you no you can't do it
or like you know maybe people look at
you like you can see all the very spel
very tall their stri is like one strike
is like three of my stries and they run
like they're floating on air but they
look at me and then but I can say no I'm
I'm I'm just going to try I'm just going
to run and I'm going to cultivate in
myself the inner ability to even when I
tell myself or somebody tells me n you
shouldn't do this yeah you you you do it
right so for again coming back to the
second Persona if you don't know your
strengths yeah then put yourself in
situations where you start to learn your
strengths don't opt out right um don't
take the don't take the easy way out
most of the time now it's it's a very
privileged position to say that right
but I think it applies even if you are
not in a very privileged position so you
know it could just
be I feel like I want to uh learn how to
build a website yeah then you just build
it it quietly in the in the back end you
don't need to put your name there right
you can be your like your secret project
and you see how it grows yeah agree so
it's almost like the idea also that um
you we mentioned you you mentioned to me
before this that uh you did a lot of
ccas in University right what were you
doing um too many but what like what I
mean I guess I dived hit in right in
University uh so I was in like I was in
two sports I was in photography club I
was in various like
student I mean we we worked with the
yellow ribon project to try and raise a
awareness for ex offenders reintegrating
into society we kayaked from like uh
where is it Bangarang to uhan near right
um so something like fundraising I mean
I try to do as many as possible then
like at some point I said to myself like
hey you know it would be nice if I did
something that was a little bit more
career slanted and so I got involved in
the business case club and represented
my
University went to Thailand competed in
what I maintain is the most challenging
of the competitions because it's 40
hours uh broadly you don't get very much
sleep most business case competitions
are 24 hours so you can thank it for 40
you have to like really push yourself
way push your way through and in each of
these like each of these things that I
put myself yeah through as it were um I
learned something new yeah either
externally but also importantly
internally right um I think
sort of in every and every time that I
felt oh yeah yeah now I know actually I
would go through something else and like
oh actually there's more to learn so I
know something but there's still a lot
that I don't know right and I think if
you seek out the opportunities to keep
trying to level up whether it's like
talking to you know like in my role uh
working at
HR a very easy way is just like I'm
going to Silo myself right and I just do
what I want to do yeah um but what helps
is going to actually go down to the
ground talking to the hiring managers
that I support talking to the interns
that the fresh grads that I hire yeah
talking to Business Leaders what what's
your priorities talking to my HR
counterparts and you know learning
learning learning learning these are all
like nuggets right it's almost like the
Mosaic right you collect towers and you
bring it all together you create this
Mosaic um that is valuable when you do
your actual job yeah so what is so
interesting that what you said is that
um um if you don't put yourself in
situations where you feel stretched
right uh you will never discover who you
are yeah right it's almost like uh I
know I am I am tall for example I'm tall
I'm athletic for whatever example I have
good jeans but I've never tried
basketball I would never know I'm going
to be good at that uh and maybe if I did
try and I tried basketball and I tried
gymnastics which means I have a
disadvantage in gymnastics because I'm
so tall um it helps me to close doors
and open law and helps me to understand
myself yeah and what is also interesting
and what you said is that uh it's not so
much of just how would you know
sometimes when you are talking to a
candidate how do you know what what the
people really need behind the curtain
how do you know the mechanics behind it
yeah I mean I was fortunate I started my
career within business so I I joined the
graduate program that allow me to rotate
across different parts of the business
in different functions some were better
some some are not so good but again
helped me to develop an understanding
for the environment and the Machinery
almost right the framework the
infrastructure that I was working within
yeah um I think there are certain things
that you learn in school right that help
you to like for every company Under the
Sun Revenue Minus cost equals profit
yeah right but what does that look like
for this the different companies or even
in a public public uh office uh Public
Service kind of there still Revenue
right Revenue comes from income from the
government there still costs and ideally
you try and minimize the profit as it
were or you rechannel it back right yeah
um so you know I guess trying to apply
your and trying to
understand why we're doing certain
things um what's different in the
current organization that you're working
in versus so like when I when I hire for
oops I hire for uh different teams MH I
try my best to try and get a sense and I
tell my team like look we need to go
talk to managers we need to talk to um
the HR generalists right to be on the
same page so we understand strategically
what's happening within the company
where are they going and then we can
pull in the same direction we can roll
in the same direction we're rowing on
the same beat as it were and you know so
that's what I've tried to do in the past
right and when you are able to do that
in addition to firstly now you you can
appear you know there were times where I
went for career Fest I'll talk to a
candidate and I'll explain what's going
on actually what part of the business
are you from I'm not from the business
I'm not from business team I'm from the
business but I'm not from a business
team I work in HR like wow you actually
know quite a lot of you know so much
about that yeah because if you're able
to do that then and you're able to
understand what are the key bits that we
need and why it why it connects to the
vision or the mission of the company
then when I go to talk to a candidate
it's not just based on like oh I'm going
to look for good grades I'm going to
look for particular positions or certain
internship that you have done in the
past that that comes on reputable name
this is all leaning on other people's
preting for you yeah but you can then
talk to them and say like hey you know
through our conversations I guess that
you're a very people person you like to
reach out oh you know I need to hire for
business I need to hire for sales this
kind of persona makes sense there right
so that's put you through right the rest
of the stuff you can learn right so like
what products you're selling that's all
right so that that's stuff that you
learn but you know you always talk about
like you know the E needs to fly the
fish needs to swim like you ask the fish
to fly there's flying fish but they
don't fly as high as a eagle right so
it's it's sort of you can only find the
eagle candidates for the eagle jobs if
you understand almost the eagle
organization what they want what they
really want so it sounds almost like
that even though you are in the front
line um you are you are also in the back
in that it's like almost like a hrbp
that you are like understanding the
business and you find that important to
understand the business so that that
candidate had that Clarity of like you
also know which candidates will fit in
the business because if you really think
about it um all of us need to understand
the business yes we if we don't
understand a business then we're just
putting this circle into that Circle and
we don't understand implications because
there's so many variables where how we
do this simple job can actually be
maximized yeah and yeah I guess not to
scare our friends right who live in
Singapore and who have grown up in
Singapore want to work in Singapore the
reality is that companies almost expect
singaporeans to bring more than just
that right it's not good enough to like
oh I as you do ABC I do ABC done n yeah
right because from a cost perspective
you know singaporeans at least in the
region are the highest paid like point
for point right there's expectation that
you bring more right and
therefore like you know for me it's
always let been something that I've
always tried to do right like if
somebody tells me hey I need to do this
the first thing I ask is why like what
we trying to achieve here like you know
how does this plug into something more
broadly and if that question is not
clear then how do I do something so that
it brings me one step closer for me to
be able to plug into right the main
right as it were right and actually add
value to the organization that I'm
working for yeah so yeah I mean as you
say it's it's import like this kind of
skill sets are something that's very
important yeah so if you are a junior
engineer you a junior salesperson you
are
junior accountant knowing understanding
more broadly what's trying what's
happening what the company is trying to
do is important and it allows you to do
your job better yeah I used to lead a a
sales team um and they would ask me like
hey we have two loan products one of
them is installment based and one of
them is like it's not installment it's
just time based right you can pay how
how much want as long as you pay the
minimum as long as by the end of it you
pay it off right then there no late fees
Etc they
said why why why why should we sell one
or the other and when I explained it to
them and like what it means to the
company so you know from a treasury
perspective it's very different one is
more profitable than the other um then
that helped them to better understand
and like it's not that it is it wasn't
like uh it completely changed how they
did things yeah but now they understood
if I sell this particular product to a
customer what's the benefit to the
company as well as to the customer if I
sell this other one what's the benefit
to the customer as well as to the
company and then you know again we talk
about progression progression is not a
Time based thing it's not about I've
been working in this job for five years
so that's why I should be promoted on
next Ro that's a long time ago 10 year
plays a very big part it can no longer
be right so it this is the stuff that
brings you to the next level you have
the ability to
understand how things join together and
the next level is about your ability to
see further into the future so that when
something is coming you know how to
respond and of course there managing
other people and all those other skills
that come along and again coming back
we're going to sound like broken record
but you have to do to learn you don't
you know there's there's no online
training there's no textbook that would
teach you this stuff yeah yeah so if I
were to try to wrap up everything um one
thing that I've been hearing again and
again in terms of your life also that um
that tenacity to try to understand as
much as possible in the various business
uh what the business really entails and
and go deeper into that that helped you
with your own success and that would
also help a candidate with their own
success to just don't look at a surface
look deeper look at why that company is
functional or what's that function on
the bigger process and if let's say that
they need they if you're in that company
and then you are serving that role and
they need a bigger perspective you
already have that perspective and that's
the value at it also helps you to you
know people talk about branding and
positioning yeah and people some you
know the negative way to see is like
just talk a lot right yeah yeah just add
time just add time just like just just
take up space right yeah yeah yeah but
what the funny thing is that also has a
part to play yeah but if done wrongly
yeah pisses everybody off so how do you
take up space the answer is that you
have a broader sense of what's going on
so that you can ask questions so like
you know we come back to that that thing
that we talked about right um product a
product B you can ask a question hey so
why are we selling more of this and more
of that why are we running a product
campaign and a sales challenge to sell
more of this and more of that yeah and
then you can then come up with ideas
that that helps you to build your own
knowledge base and helps you then to
give back to the organization to drive
the organization's success in the future
yeah awesome uh thank you so so much
Neil I I think um we have a lot to
unpack and we have unpacked a lot and I
appreciate your time and for those
candidates at home or those candidates
are trying to figure out understand that
um you need to just keep moving uh keep
learning so that you can figure out and
um I think the worst kind of candidates
are the candidates that just don't want
to put in the effort before that
interview and that resume and um uh so
don't be that calm person right so thank
you so much Neil for this time thank
you
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