TRANSCRIPT

Becoming a Principal - Mr Ng Eng Chin (ACS) | The CJH Podcast EP10

*Captions are taken directly from YouTube and may not be 100% accurate

[Music]

and a little bit about him and very

special because he's my principal last

time so he was a teacher in Essex

secondary school for nine years uh

principal in essence Barker 14 years

principal in Asia's International

Jakarta 13 years he is now an adjunct

teacher always teaching right and he

also won a public administration medal

bronze so welcome Mr ninja hi nice to be

here

you have um I I do remember when I was

in ACS Barker you know that when he

started it and all that you one of the

most profound people who have impacted

my life uh in a way that you saw the

uniqueness in people and I think I

caught that fire and I and I carried on

using that fire in the uniqueness what

I'm very curious about in things that

I'm doing right now is

how people are extremely not passionate

in their job and but it is a total flip

because that's what I see in you that

you are extremely passionate about what

you do when I think back my life in as

in school so there were teachers that

were not passionate and the teachers are

super passionate so I wanted to find out

from you from earliest memory that you

have like did you know teaching was from

you since primary school or what

happened I I don't think that it

probably levels all of us would be able

to realize what we want we we may desire

for a certain occupation or line that

you want to go into but only when you're

later on when you start discovering for

yourself you know what you're strong in

that then you find maybe a purpose as

well as meaning in what you want to do

and then you go into it right for

example I mean like anybody who you know

in those days when we have a TV and you

know all the things about movies and you

see and I wanted to become a policeman

you know because that it sounds like

catching diesels quite exciting and you

want to become a policeman but as you go

older and when you come I think my

turning point was when I was in the

junior college or pre-university days

and that's when I started to discover

that I was Talent OR gift in teaching

because I was leading my own class group

a small group I mean I was relatively

good in mathematics so they all say oh

you know why don't you be the one

helping us and teaching us you know so I

said okay fine let's you know do a study

group and we go to a friend's place and

we sort of came there for about three

four hours or even longer than that

right yeah and we started doing

mathematics and obviously uh being good

in mathematics I was able to solve

things fast and so and yet when when I

able to solve things I have to ask

myself now how do I convey those

processes to my friends yeah and that's

the key part in any teaching you know

anybody who loves teaching you must be

able to bring it down to the level of a

learner right if you're not able to

bring it down to the level of learner

and you say oh you know I just a flash

in my mind and suddenly things gets off

you know it doesn't happen like this

that's not how it's loose yeah it

doesn't happen like this it has to be

some systematic thought in your mind

that you want to try this method or try

this out and then subsequently you

discover oh oh this it might be this is

the way in a much easier way so so even

in mathematics you can discover that

well these are the things that you do

even for people who are very brilliant

in mathematics who can do uh solve

problems fast yeah they need to convey

how is is it done to another person

right and so I discovered that well I I

naturally had that gift I was able to

convey to my friends I said oh you know

let's begin with this and let's think

about this and then let's think about

that and then slowly we are able to

solve the problem and so I thought okay

teaching was my line to go into I was

actually in pre-university in the class

of Engineers when I say Engineers

because these students who I happen to

be in this class because they all take

double meds right you know and physics

and chemistry or physics and econs or

whatever I mean I love mathematics since

SEC four days and so after secular okay

the easiest way now is to do double

match none of the humanity subject

because that takes a lot of learning or

even the science subject sometimes it

takes a long time because of the

experiments as well so I took to myself

okay I'll do just a double match of

physics and with the cons not even

chemistry I don't think any console

would be something but give me the

balance between the Arts and the

Sciences so that's how I then progress

into and one day there was a teacher of

mine who went to the class to say how

many of you want to be feature okay so

that was a question this is what I

preview yeah for you and one lone hand

came out okay and everybody in class

loud because everybody said hey you must

be mad right this is an engineering

class and everybody always aspired to

get a did you get a degree or go through

a degree course in in University in

engineering but here one don't put up

you know uh another aspect was another

teacher of mine which impacted me quite

a bit also was my form teacher and he

says never come into teaching

from what he has gone through he said

you know never coming to the teaching

you know you won't be rich with being a

teacher yeah you won't be rich being a

teacher that's a fact sure but it's

whether things impact you and whether

things have a purpose and meaning in

your life and I think that's important

in anyone going into a passion or the

job or whatever what does the job pose

for you yeah how does it impact you

right that gives you meaning in what you

do if you find that you're in in for

that job yeah right so curious before

you sit in SEC for secondary school you

already you already knew you had a

talent for math yes Primary School no no

it's like four is that uh Primary School

well I don't know I I maybe it's just

too young to you know uh you you try to

do everything well yes so only in

secondary where things become more

specialized a little bit harder and then

you start to realize oh you know things

solve easily for math for me you know

for others it may be a struggle yeah

right I mean elementary mathematics at

lower level everybody can so but then

when after they cross primary six and go

into SEC one sec two and it's like three

then they discover a it's not the

easiest after all you know uh so that's

that's what happened to me I think well

not that I love mess in primary school

already I may have the inclination there

and they do relatively okay but it's

only in come to SEC three SEC four and

then three one preview two that I

discover wow I really love uh two meds

yeah right

curious to know what about math that

exercise use so much

I guess to me okay totally different I

really I prefer humans I prefer biology

because I understand it yeah for math

the struggle for me was the practicality

in real life next ah okay so I like why

do I study tydx why don't I study EMS

emails and all that what Fascination for

math did you have in that secondary to

preview okay I I think for uh the for

mathematics there's this challenge all

right always every time when you want to

solve a problem you want to be well one

of the earliest you will Define a a

solution for him okay so so that's that

challenge the second thing is of course

Matt strains the mind okay it gives you

the logical thinking yeah because after

you go into difficult problems then you

realize there's some logic in the

approach right that that why you

approach it in this way and why

systematically you move from one level

to the next or one step to the next so

that itself is actually a good trading

for the might I I even in teaching now I

always tell my kids that you you know

the don't don't copy the answer all

right or don't copy the solution because

you do not know my thought processes let

me relate it out or let me say it out to

you so that then you can think through

together at the same time as me right

then you again much because if you just

look at the solution it doesn't

it doesn't help you right ultimately the

question may change slightly but you

need to have the same thought processes

to begin with right and to approach a

problem and then you'll find a solution

yeah so two things one is the challenge

of solving it fast yes and the second

one would be

um there's something about the

systematic approach of solving something

that piques your interest yes right okay

so when you started teaching your

friends uh the class and all that how

big was this oh it was a group of about

six of us six or seven over okay yeah

what kind of validation because usually

when we when we try to do strengths and

all that we we try to do something we

need either a validation that actually

I'm good in it or somebody tells you

that you're good in that yeah what

validation do you get I I guess

um in able to guide my my fellow

classmates and right to improve in their

bets and to be able to solve problems

all right I think that that's the

satisfaction I get yeah uh knowing that

well we all face the same problem okay

when we first started okay let's try

this some okay oh let's try and then

when I got the solution and I then

started to share with them how how the

thought processes yeah I think then of

course they they're also happy and

they're excited and they recognize that

well yeah it's always been good you know

you'll be able to solve it yeah and he

will help us and so that comes the

satisfaction part right when you teach

someone and you realize well there's

positive feedback not that you teach

someone and then there's negative

feedback and it goes to us but there's

positive feedback and everybody learns

and everybody improves and and that's

where you reinforces you uh your own

yourself that you know well that is your

gift in the sense yeah right so the day

did they score better format because

they did well I wouldn't say it's called

better I think we're all in the same

class and yeah my fellow classmates

before getting an e or whatever yeah

okay okay so at that point of time when

you're teaching them you started to

realize that you wanted to be a teacher

yes correct why not be a professor in

math because that's also some uh so

that's also a journey that you could

have taken that means like I I want to

study more in math and I want to be a

PhD in math and just carry on and maybe

in a university and all that

um did they consider I I I didn't came

across me because uh basically when I

after University and I went into

National service and I took up a

teaching bursary all right so so right

from the start I wanted to be a teacher

not so much as well I want to be a

professor and then I would have taken

something different yeah yeah so so

because I I wanted to have a teacher

being a teacher so I took up the

teaching bursary so that's where even in

University days I did my basic course

for maths first yeah against the Green

mats and then after I go to when I use

the qualification yes right yeah so you

before the teaching bursary you actually

already knew that that's it yeah this is

set for me yeah that's it for me

although it doesn't make me uh richer

let me say that but the bursary is um I

mean it helps out the burst we have a

university and all that and a long time

ago sometimes it's difficult yeah so

even my father also try to get

scholarship everybody tries to get

scholarship at their point of time so

after you finish nie yes uh you went

into teaching yes right and when you

were teaching

um

was there any confirmation that because

some teachers I know that they stop

after a few years and then they go on to

somewhere else yeah what confirmation or

validation do you okay I want to say

that teaching is not just the subject

matter per se yeah because I was also

helping out uh in my University days uh

believe it or not you know I was roped

in to help out in the in my national

police cadet call right and we were

excited because Prof cha who was uh then

a lecturer in the University right so he

was the chairman of the mpcc council and

he thought of starting a unit right in

the University uh for National Police

can they call right these are called

station inspectors these are called uh

you know who will then go down to the

school system yeah so actually during

University days and even when I was

doing my course and even during the

exams remember yeah I went back to the

school to help Mom and before that there

was no before profession there was yeah

before that no because after you finish

your pre-university you know better

about it all right all right and and

that's the end of the uio

is uh you're from your organization yeah

and so you you go proceed on to your

next stage the tertiary education

whether Polytechnic or universities or

whatever yeah and it wouldn't be that

kind of uh ties back to the credit core

kind of things yeah so but but this was

an extension which to me was good

because I I love the cadet call so I

thought yeah I've been very involved in

the cadet call in my school days right

so I thought oh that's good you know I

can still serve but now at least uh well

at a higher rank and therefore I come

back to the school right to serve and

and to look after the kids you know yeah

right was any correlation about going

back to school and teaching these young

these are second musical right yes yeah

this young Secondary School people that

uh has something to do with teaching as

well yes it does because like I said

teaching is not just only about the

academic matters yeah yeah I mean even

if we uh reflect upon our school days

yeah the people who impacted us are not

just well we may be good teachers in the

subject but more so they are people who

are of influence in other words they

impacted us because we believe you know

there's something in them we believe

well they have encouraged us we believe

in them and we pursue you know ahead in

life and this is what you know when I

look at myself and even when I uh

proceed on the the career for teaching

is is how much can I impact their lives

under my charge I think that that is the

key part I always ask myself you know

can I help them to be better persons and

and so if I think that well this is my

passion my call then I will pursue yeah

so so that's how you know he came about

so like I said even though I may be good

in maths yeah yeah but I I will just go

to nie to just get the skills to be able

to teach and in part yeah right but

further than that it goes beyond just

imparting knowledge yeah

if you were to share with me when it

comes to teaching there is one part

where it's about great

and by their layers because we are human

beings and in many layers that a teacher

needs to could potentially impact us

basic basic would just be just a scroll

well you get an A and all that and those

are actually not the best teachers out

there right those are the ones that okay

I just go well can already if you were

to layer it and for me what would you

say that other responsibilities of a

teacher are besides just academic what

other layers would you have in your mind

um other layers where I would think that

yeah basically to look to be able to

share uh your life with the kid or with

the people under your charge right

because they look up to you as a role

model yeah yeah that's the key part I

mean not so much as Role Models oh a

teacher who can solve my math problem

but a teacher who is an elderly a deadly

person younger than me right and who is

able to impart certain values of life

with me all right and I look up to that

person because well it's it's somebody

whom I think that I want to be yes yeah

I mean I I have even in my school days

teachers I look up to yeah right they

impacted me I thought yeah you know the

fellas sweet sense you know makes an

impact on your on how I think and how I

reflect about life I think that's key

part of it right yeah so one more layer

on top is yeah see that being that role

model yeah being that

um that light for values that would

probably impact their life in a positive

way yes personally for you were there

were there teachers that you you kind of

wanted to emulate that you were like hey

actually oh what did they do those

teachers that you had is like yeah

actually this is the kind of teacher I

want to be uh not exactly that uh you

know you want to be exactly that person

I think each one of us have their own

style yeah how to reach out I mean I I

know my messages in the JC days uh would

talk a lot of things other than maths

okay let me say this of course it goes

to class and you this teach you these

are the principles to solve a equation

yeah if you have so many unknowns we

must have so many questions full stop

okay there's the basics of mathematics

which is true yeah right but then the

other half day of the time you talk

about oh you know Japan you know how

successful it has been so it opens your

eyes to other things in life you know

because you know he will like compete in

in those days in the 1970s Japanese were

the top body and you know we'll look up

to the Japanese for good products and

everything yes so so he'll he'll speak

about you know how the people are so

disciplined and how they managed to will

raise up you know as a country Etc right

so these are things that well if you ask

me do I want to speak about that most of

the time we were teaching not exactly

yes I may refer certain times certain

moments and choose certain times and

opportunities where I can share certain

things yes by all means but well still

come back to the fundamental you're

still a good teacher or teacher that has

to impart certain things about the

subject so you carry on with the lessons

as such yeah right right so one aspect

is just opening the eyes of the students

not just confined to the topic that

you're talking about or the discipline

that you're teaching yes but is to how

do I open my eyes and for you opening

your the eyes of the students would be

the values that you can impact yeah for

them correct okay I also understand the

Ministry of Education you can choose

that you can forever be a teacher that

means continue teaching how the way

senior teacher they call it the teaching

route yeah teaching teaching track then

there's another track where people would

choose the a maybe I I wanna lead other

teachers and they call it the management

track yes correct

were you given that option to choose

I have never thought of in the

leadership track Frankly Speaking okay

because basically when I first started

teaching I was thinking yeah my ambition

wasn't oh I want to hate the school at

the end of the day you know I always

want to be a good teacher right yeah and

if if opportunities arise where they put

me into leadership well by all means go

into it and challenge yourself and see

whether you discover this what you want

yeah all right so even in terms of this

leadership from teacher rising up to a

principal yeah I mean I went through the

wrongs okay uh I was a young teacher but

because I went back to my own school so

obviously it was a bit easier to handle

because I grew up as a student in that

school so obviously you know all the

tricks of the students you know

everything about the students why they

think this way why they behave in this

way so so yeah easy easier for you to

make the report and easier for you to

you know establish yourself you're from

the tribe correct yeah so so I it didn't

take me very long before they threw me

in the deep end they say okay now uh why

don't you take charge of discipline okay

so so I became a discipline Master right

a young discipline Master because there

are other display Masters in the school

so I learned the ropes a bit and then I

became a prefect master

right so from discipline I became a

prefect master and then after that well

they said well since you're good at math

work why don't you hate the department

so I become a head of department for

mathematics right right so dead but that

was where for all these times yeah I was

there uh already a path you needed to

choose or they kind of left it open all

the way they left open the other way

right you know and and when

um there's a need for a hit to be

appointed they'll ask you you know would

you want to take this okay so from

discipline master I thought okay finder

is doing a job then prefect Master well

it's quite related we fixing the one who

carried out the discipline so yeah okay

so there's a natural the message yeah

the message then after that message only

of course I I love teaching mathematics

yeah all right and I I would like to

impart that also to my teachers you know

and in the way and approach how they do

the teaching of mathematics so I thought

okay let's be a let's say shooting no

problem you know I can take up that job

so it's not something that I aspire to

become yeah that you look out for and

when the door is open you start be the

first one to put up your hand you know

I'm not a type fine I'm gonna type to

say put up my hand even after that as a

hod okay I was comfortable on teaching

in that school and then suddenly an

opportunity come and I got a phone call

from then the bishop and he says you

know in China we're going to start off

another school in the same family uh

would you like to hit that school right

so I thought yeah why not because I I

was I mean if you understand the

situation in the ACs it was like well

ACS became independent and therefore

there were many students who were

previously uh in in the school but two

Primary School yeah the two primary

schools feeding in training yeah once

again one Secondary School yeah and of

course the standards get higher because

basically you know as you have a cut off

then obviously you you exclude other

people or the same family members from

coming in yeah right so so I when I

first started teaching it was like from

a class all the way to M Class okay so

you can imagine the range was so wide

and always feel that well you know those

people were quite disadvantaged were not

so strong in their studies them they

know they are challenging in teaching

them but there's also called great

satisfaction right because to reach out

to them and to be able to have that

Rapport and be able to reach out to them

and to be able to change their lives

yeah well I see changes in them I think

that itself is a satisfying moment yeah

so suddenly when you're cut off from a

to M class and you suddenly only taking

a to E class then what happens to all

the F to anger onwards yeah so that's

when I said okay fine if they want me to

start off a school of you know catering

for the F to the M class I say why not

yeah let's do that right I mean I I know

it's challenging it's not going to be

easy because there's always the

comparison between this school and that

school right and and and how do you turn

around a school that is already there or

people think that they're already there

how to turn it around so so that's

something a challenge with me again so I

thought okay let's let's go in and do

the job there yeah was there any kind of

mathematical

um it's almost like um this is a

challenge

and I have certain steps I will take to

make sure that this group of students

would not feel that way okay there's no

mathematics because when you talk about

relationships you know there isn't a

formula for relationships right which is

the most challenging yeah it's the most

challenging thing I mean because even if

you try it out for on one group or one

person or whatever it may not be the

same for the other person as it will it

doesn't work that way right so anything

about relationship is on the ground

having to be able to empathize able to

understand from their point of view and

then move forward from there how to help

them to see another you know Avenue and

other opening or whatever it is so so I

would say that yeah there's there's no I

mean I it came into our mind about being

disadvantaged no doubt about that but

then how do you turn the disadvantage so

that they don't keep on harboring about

the disadvantage yeah and not see the

light out there right so this is what I

thought yeah let's try and convince them

that well there's still value right and

how do they look at what they have and

value themselves and they move on in

life so that this is what I I thought

yeah we turned the school around that

way right so I remember that um I was

the second match under your leadership

right we moved over from primary school

our second batch and I was in the last

class of Express 206 so I could

definitely I think the cutoff for ISS

iOS 235 yes right so if I didn't have

backer yeah I would be somewhere else

yes correct definitely somewhere else

that is in a very different experience

yeah definite's worth I just it's not

whether or not it's not just the family

it's just that I I I've been kind of

like because of great I've been kicked

out of my tribe and that's it so so I

was very appreciative and um of of the

chances that

um that was given in he says yeah and

one interesting thing that uh even when

I talked to all my back friends the

that you never made us feel that we were

inferior you always even on Chapel

mornings and all you do you do beat that

drum that yes or you are unique you are

special you are late bloomers you are

everything everything that is positive

on that slam

where did that come from for you because

it doesn't come naturally to people

well I mean if you look at ACS when when

I was a student I mean we were all sorts

here I mean we have friends who are

super rich we are friends who are also

you know average yeah yeah and so forth

and even you look at even ability yeah

right so so the the A-Class fellas who

will be your doctors and lawyers and

whatever but there's also the other end

of fellas who are who are entrepreneurs

yeah business he eventually rise up to

be good business a good in business Etc

yeah so you you learn to appreciate the

diversity and that's the key part in

this is there's the whole diverse yeah

all right so so when when you look at

that then you realize yeah actually

everybody is to find their own Niche and

be successful in that yeah and even for

my own class even the whole bunch of us

who are Engineers not everyone became

Engineers yeah right some some went on

to a different field

but they were all successful in their

own rights right so to me is that

there's a whole diversity so it doesn't

mean that well you may be slower and you

may not happen in in the other school

but you end up here well you're

condemned and other system you know all

right so so you learn to Value people

and you learn to give them hope and I

think that's the key part is how to give

them hope so that they can build their

own self-confidence and then they move

on in life right so that's what I I've

always looked at and say let's give them

hope right as you can see when I was a

principal in the school there I have

always shared about Hope yes yeah that

things will be better yeah yeah but you

just need to have the fundamentals right

yeah hard work etc you know these things

must be there but you know if you don't

you just do hope but without doing what

are the ingredients that will steer you

towards that then that's lost like

wishful thinking yeah that's right right

so then you became so when you are a

principal principal being a principal

from a HD yeah of a full School you

weren't even the principal of just a

secondary school your principal at the

primary school

the skill sets the everything is

different yes from a history of man yeah

what made you feel that like um I think

I got this

I I think I was just very gung-ho spirit

I must say I mean on reflection I mean

as you gain experience as you age and

yes you reflect upon your early days

then you realize that wow really yeah

rightfully say you know what what is it

that you think that I have it everything

and then you know to do the job actually

I don't have everything at that point in

time I must say I was one of the

youngest principles around and I didn't

go through super courses that will equip

me totally yeah but I gained my

experience on the ground most of the

time yeah

um even if I reflect upon my life now if

I look back there are different stages

all right so when I first started back

road or Aces back road at that point in

time I realized that my passion was

there all right to reach out to the kids

yeah and I devoted a lot of my time to

the kids yeah okay uh I may not have

used my teachers that much although I

may not have impacted my teachers that

much right okay but it's interesting

when I went on to the second phrase of

my life I realized that I seem to be

impacting my teachers more right the

second phase would be after yes after

Baka that means International

yeah so it's kind of like your focus was

changed yes it was changed it's quite

interesting because could I have done

better if I've done it through my

teachers perhaps so it's not that I

don't impact because I was trying to

impact everybody yeah yeah in Baka yeah

yeah time is not you you can't devote to

everything so yes in in generally when

you do briefing when you talk to

everyone you hope to impact everyone

your staff and students yeah

um so but I spend more time with

students because I felt that that is

something that they need and they needed

yeah at that point in time I didn't

spend that much time with my staff to

say you know do a good job please you

know look after this as back of the of

the of the students etc etc but I went

directly to the students I went yeah uh

to talk to them to speak to them and

rally them yeah most of the time yeah

yeah but on the second phase when I went

on to ACS International Jakarta it's

quite interesting that

um my vice principals were the one who

actually run the show for me and so I

had more time so I thought more time

means well less impact the teachers

because the teachers are the key part of

it right so it comes also with wisdom as

you grow older and you find yeah perhaps

maybe if you were the early days you're

more gung-ho do everything on the ground

you know every job is your job

when you gain the experience they feel

that well the key people are the

teachers will drive the school for you

yeah I do remember that you were very

Hands-On and a lot of times in the

morning assembly you were talking yeah

right and I mean different parts are you

this I remember one time that you showed

us how the tie was not to be won and

some I think you took it out and then

you look very unkempt yeah and then you

just tuck out your [ __ ] and all that and

you're like this is not the way that you

behave as a gentleman and things like

that yeah so it's like it's almost like

um you were playing it sounds like from

reflection you were playing the role of

a teacher

right that you that you wanted to be on

the ground and I remember that even

before SEC 4 Amex uh exams yeah pool

levels you would come into different

classes yes and as a principal devote

time to have a master class for Emet

whereas that after two hours we're like

how come our teacher didn't really share

that it was like why why so straight

away we were like oh we get it yeah so

it's um why do you think uh was it

because that you felt that it was um

this group of students really needed

that attention from you and that's why

you devoted your time and then after you

moved on to Jakarta he says

International yes different yeah yeah

it's different in the sense that well

yeah this group of students needed all

the help they needed yeah right I mean

that's a principle I can't just sit back

and say okay I'll leave it to my

teachers you know wherever possible if I

can strengthen you know uh my students

yeah uh because I have done the

knowledge of it I have the skill of it

and why not yeah so that's why I do go

down to the ground in those early days

uh well if it's fighting fire or

whatever it is yeah yeah in order to

impact lives and to make them well ready

for exams or whatever so that that

explains why I go on to the ground yeah

right right because these are students

well it's your first batch going or for

second batch or whatever bash you know

and you feel that well you need to set

the bid on in that way so that's what I

did yeah okay yeah but in the other

school is like things have been quite

stabilized and you know you can we relax

a little bit and look at your teachers

at more right right yeah

I'm curious about passion and um when it

comes to Passion I do have three

different areas of passion yeah where it

makes up passion so the first one is

interest the interest in the topic or

interest in the whole discipline of

teaching uh second one is strengths that

means what comes naturally to you and

the third one is values right uh you

were interested in math

what about being a principal that you

were so interested in and intrigued by

actually I wasn't like I said I I it was

not a path that I chose yeah

consciously in a sense yeah because when

I first started teaching I said well I

want to be a good teacher well that's

good enough yeah I didn't choose a

leadership track but when I was thrown

in the leadership because leadership

impacts a lot more people than just the

people in your classes that you teach

and that's it then you begin to

understand that well you know can you be

a impactful person for many others all

right all right so

um today was your interesting yeah this

was influencing people yeah as much as

possible as much possible and whatever

my position is how can I influence as

many people as possible that's right

yeah it's not so much that well it's a

status conscious that I want to reach

out to you know to the level that I

reach for myself and then to be able to

have the self-actualization and nothing

of this art yeah my socializing comes

from the satisfaction that I receive uh

that my work has been recognized in the

sense that well they make impactful uh

lives yeah for themselves right the kids

so this is something which I thought

this is something that after 20 30 years

of education and then you know kids come

back to you and say you know thank you

very much because you know we you make

an impact that that's great satisfaction

yes no dollar and sense Priceless yeah

Priceless you you can't measure by

dollars and the kind of thing so so this

is what I felt you know that that I want

to do yes to lead a school yeah compared

to lead uh math hod Department yeah

different skill sets I want to hear from

you like where did you learn these

things from because can you go for

leadership courses do you read up do you

ask other principles to Mentor you what

happened that you upskilled yourself

okay that's interesting I I mean the

theoretical ways of course equip

yourself with skills and support I mean

this is what the world always tells you

get yourself into this course and that

cause and you learn the skills I think

I'm so much a grounds person that I

learned a lot of things from experience

your own experience okay not so much

from Reading because I've gone through a

course for principle no doubt about that

but my mind has always been okay now how

do I apply it right and when you can't

apply it's not that you know suddenly

you come to a situation they say okay

this is on page 36 okay now we do it

this way it doesn't happen like that

right it's your own natural personality

okay how your natural personality flows

into what you want to do and how you

want to do it okay so I would say the

skill sets yeah I picked up along the

way even how to reach out to students

how to reach out to adults especially

teachers or even parents yeah it's all

different it's all different okay I mean

I

um back in the early years yes it was

students and parents I tried to reach

out to okay to give parents some hope

and to give parents you know your child

is not that bad like don't worry in a

few years time or later on when he he

will turn around so I I always Comfort

parents like that right then when I

became over in ACS International in

Jakarta yes I reached out to the parents

right I reach out also to the teachers

so these are adults so it's a different

way of reaching it out right uh so you

learn along the way all right yeah so

you're very much ground Zone yeah I

pretty much I I don't know whether that

will work for many people but some

people feel that well they must go

through this cause that cause yeah but

Frankly Speaking ultimately at the end

of the day it's how you handle the

situation yeah all right you you may be

equipped by yes certain skill sets

that's needed but ultimately what drives

you this key so uh

is interesting you say that because wind

wag went to the private sector school

like ACS International Jakarta yeah you

know the people who says oh you know

don't share this with another school

because they'll copy you

I've never stopped in that I haven't

stopped to think oh yeah they will copy

us and then you know they'll be better

than us I always feel that well it's up

to the leader if the leader the

leadership there can steer the school to

be better than us well let's go for them

all right but they can't copy me I do it

differently I may tell you or these are

the ingredients needed to be a good

school yeah right but it's really up to

you how you want to translate It On The

Ground yeah right so so to each its own

so you you you you may look at my school

and you look at it oh that's how he runs

it or can we do it same just copy that

yeah sop yeah you can so so same thing

when you go to a course you learn about

certain things

decipher what it is and what works for

you yeah on the ground yeah

then how about after that after after

the interest and strengths and all that

we I want to hear from you like um

what do you think that you were talented

in as a principal that this was a gift

gifting that that the tools felt light

so some people would be things like yeah

any crisis I'm very calm right or things

like um yeah I love influencing people I

love to see their minds changing all

there what was the gift that you felt

that you were given or you had a talent

a natural thing

uh okay if I reflect about running

schools I mean

after you know having to run two

institutions then then you started and

you gained experience over the time then

you realize that well the certain

ingredients needed to have a successful

school yeah okay and you never reflected

when you first I when I first started in

Barker okay I mean it was on the ground

fighting fire all the time you never

thought okay you know what what are the

ingredients needed to do that you know

so so what you can do you do you know so

but as you as you grow older and as you

think about it as you go into leadership

track and as you reflect upon your own

leadership you know what is needed in a

school you then start to have that

theoretical basis yeah where the

structures and and things so forth that

needed to be put in place first and then

how do you equip your teachers how do

you uh give confidence to your teachers

to try out without the fear of you know

um failure because you know the schools

are running in different ways some

people put fear in school in the

teachers yeah in other words they say oh

you don't do this without my permission

so it becomes a very top-down kind of

thing and you realize that well it

doesn't work that way because things

will will get bubble next because

everybody doesn't want to move everybody

doesn't have the creativeness in them

because why would I want to stick my

head out and later on I get smacked down

by my principle yeah yeah so so it

should run by fear yeah run by fear yeah

so we asked for my style is different uh

people have been very comfortable with

my style because sometimes I appoint his

heads of Department I know they do know

the job like especially Indonesia where

you are pointing an Indonesian to be

ahead of Republican and they are quite

fearful because they fear that well if I

do something wrong what will happen to

me all right all right so you try to

assure people that don't worry so long

as you know you make a decision yes

sometimes we do not know whether that

decision will go this way or that way

but you have to make a decision right

and if things don't work that way I and

and parents complain whatever I'll show

that you okay because I I want to do you

want to know that behind you yeah right

I wouldn't say how can you make this

kind of decision and point the finger

back yeah

I mean it's a mistake made by you fired

Yeah by at the end at the end I will say

let's learn together yeah yeah so you

have to make decision on the spot

because that was on the ground right and

and whether it's right or wrong you

won't know until later on yeah most of

the time right so so you try and back up

the person so these are things that uh

I find that will work for school so in

in schools in Indonesia sometimes it's

very top down nobody moves until the

boss say yes right right nobody is seen

to want to have a creative idea because

well don't steal the Thunder From The

Boss yeah they're kind of think right

yeah we asked for for me when I went to

that school I was a little bit I

understand the culture that's why I said

okay no well it's not a blame culture I

always say that it's not blame culture

so I will be there to back you up you

know better and they see it because when

parents complain they come into my

office you know I'll bring everybody

together and I'll talk about it and say

okay sorry you know we did this you know

on behalf of the school we did this

sorry and they realized okay they have

the school backing yeah right and and

the percent rule yeah right so so if

you're appointed to as a head of

Department

you know hey then you discover for

yourself then you grow I said right and

they and they all love that they can't

waddle so the gifting that you had

sounds like you're able to please people

uh in positions of influence where they

feel safe enough to fail

and they know that you have their back

yeah and they know that they can be

creative yes and that is a

unique gifting that you have yeah and I

discovered it's not that you know uh

from the start I I think I have this

right yeah it's on the ground when you

practice it yeah and we begin to realize

that well you know this is what you mean

to trust somebody right right because uh

yeah sometimes you may have trusted the

wrong guy that's fine you we all do make

mistakes you know uh but you still it

doesn't mean that one mistake you made

and therefore you don't try at all you

know because sometimes a mistake May

ruin out our perception of things more

life you know and they say no no we we

won't do this totally at all but we must

be able to say okay we made a mistake

then let's move on but 10 other things

were good let's move on Yeah you

mentioned that you don't you didn't know

that this was a gifting for you yeah it

was what it would that feedback or

validation come from the results that

you see that people grow or would it

whether teachers us that actually went

to tell you that hey actually you're

very different you're a very different

kind of leader yes I mean they shared

with me that would take a few years

later yeah they shared with me and say

oh you know we were quite different you

know and and I'm quite different in the

sense that yeah you know you give us

space to grow and I think that's

important giving people the space to

grow right

um so that that's how that realized okay

this is what I'm good at you know yeah

yeah it's a special power yeah special

powers to empower people yeah yeah I

mean sometimes you know we Empower but

then we we get a big stick behind and we

have time to work later on you know

which is better you know you you need to

walk the talk uh the talk that well if

you Empower people if they you give them

the right to make decisions and you back

them up yeah yeah

last one when it comes to values

um everybody I I feel that if they are

living out their passion something that

that probably even God has called you

too uh here there's a certain value that

you have that you are living up yeah

right for me it's that's the value of

Adventure I want to be able to explore

different things Discovery is a big

value for me and that's why I did 32

different jobs right in my life because

I'm discovering things with uh basking

in the streets of Orchard Road I'm

trying to be an insurance agent doing

different things

it was a very big part of me and that's

that's where I live out my realities for

you

in this role as a teacher as a principal

as an educator what do you what value do

you feel that you're living up

well

um basically follow Christ yeah I mean

my faith is Christian faith yeah right

so obviously I would like to be the

model for Christ yeah so when when I go

through difficult periods I reflect that

yeah my Lord went through the difficult

periods too yeah right when when I had

hope for others I was also think that

well Christ also had hoped by this so

these are the things that well Christ is

the model that I'm looking at and then

these are things his values are my

values too and

this is where what makes me move on

right even if there's difficult period

in my time even in as a principal or as

a teacher I have that difficult times

also it's not that everything is Cushy

you know and you learn to say you learn

to accept things you learn to be humble

you learn to think through and say yeah

you know there was things that my Lord

has been through then yeah what is this

this nothing invite you learn to look

ahead and learn to trust that that's a

greater person behind you yeah and he's

moving you you learn to see that doors

are open yeah certain windows are closed

but certain doors opened you can go into

it and you move on with it yeah

I do see a little bit of the correlation

when it comes to your gifting

um it sounds like

um you can you personally can mess up

but there's always Grace yes right and

the grace comes from

price for example yes right and uh like

he has he's gracious you are also

gracious right yes I think it's

important that everyone understands

his position weighs in terms of you know

the family in terms of place of work you

know terms of the greater world yeah we

are just a very small being right in

this whole whole complex of Life yeah

and it's important to understand that

well many times we fail many times we

don't have the success but well we

forgive we we give others opportunity

and others will also give you the

opportunity yeah and that's great you

know to be able to pick up the pieces

and say well let's move on yeah

uh one last or a few last questions yes

when it comes to

um people who are listening to this or

even viewing this and the other Road in

their life where they do have passions

but they're not sure what to do with it

and whether or not they should just go

with the majority where I just get a job

and I just

get salary and there's nothing wrong

with it but then there's a group that

actually do want to actually explore

their passion in your role as an

educator as a person who who kind of

like has has seized potential in so many

people and all that what is your view of

people following their passion

I think in whatever you do I always say

to people I mean

um you know when when I interviewed

Indonesian teachers you know they come

to see me and they say they will

describe you know how much they can do

for the school how much they can do in

their work you know and I always say you

know uh I need more people than just

doing the job okay I say I say this all

honesty I said you know I need people

who can uh look at things Beyond just to

get the salary or the food on the table

I say understand that you need food on

the table for your family all right but

you need to ask yourself what is your

purpose and what's your how the job will

give you the purpose as well as meaning

yeah right in life if you can resolve

these two issues about you know your

purpose in doing this and your like what

meaning do you have for you as a person

then you'll probably be able to pursue

much further right so in all any bottom

thing that you do what's the purpose and

what what meaning is it okay for me

obviously my purpose is driven by my

faith yeah yeah because I want to reach

out to many people I want to make an

impact on the lives of others what

meaning does it have for me it has a lot

of meaning yeah because I'm able to see

someone being saved or someone being

helped you know and to me that's great

dissatisfaction right so I think your

voice is the examine when you go into a

line or a job or whatever what is your

purpose you know in doing their job so

that they will drive you further and

what meaning does it have that will

sustain you even further if you were

gonna lead somebody yeah and you are

trying to influence somebody it could be

a student who said one at 206. it could

be a teacher

what is one thing that you feel is

extremely important to be able to

influence that person

but that

okay the many aspects but I think one

aspect is basically uh work humbly all

right yeah and always uh seek to do

things for the benefit of others okay I

think I think that that's important

right right uh what humbly because

sometimes we stumble because we

ourselves become you know too high up

too highly of ourselves and think highly

of ourselves yeah and every time we

thought that so work humbly right and

uh move on in life to see how much you

can be an influence and impact to others

thank you okay thank you so we'll come

to the end of the podcast yeah I thank

you so much for this it's a very special

magical moon for me you've impacted my

life so much

um a lot of the things I do in

leadership training coaching uh does

emulate the things that you do where you

are on the ground and there's always

that it's almost that the idea that

there is that judge yeah that you are

but also you are that brother friend

Father Figure and it's both that Yin and

the Yang that's so important when it

comes to Leading other people but I do

feel that a lot of times that judge

doesn't come out yeah and that brother

father figure does come out more so

that's something that I always take for

me and yeah I really appreciate you

changing my life thank you thank you

thank you

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