TRANSCRIPT

Becoming a Debate Coach - Samuel Myat San | The CJH Podcast EP1

*Captions are taken directly from YouTube and may not be 100% accurate

[Music]

awesome so uh invited you here because I

really wanted to find out from you

you're very unique

um colorful life and wanted to find out

for everyone how that really comes out

especially the passion side of you and

how that passion became something that

you really enjoy doing and you are

actually doing now so Samuel runs a

outfit that does debate for schools and

he goes there teaching them and helping

them to understand how debate works and

yeah basically just teaching them right

that's right yeah anything else

in addition to debate I'll be teaching

them things which are related to debate

um oratory public speaking Model United

Nations so it's got debate elements as

well so all these sort of things which

are put into the debate program so it's

not just two teams yelling at each other

yeah all right yeah awesome so one thing

I'm very fascinated it about is uh and

this is about your life story I I know

you since JC right and that point of

time you were valedictorian right so

then after I know that you became a

scholar you went to this is Mr Harvard

here you went Harvard then you became

the assistant director in Ministry of

law

um I went to the Ministry of Foreign

Affairs first foreign

as a civil servant was at the ministry

of Law and doing uh intellectual

property

policy yeah

so for somebody like that my curiosity

is Peak because most of the time when I

see that I see a future that's great a

future that's stable future that you

kind of know your path and you kind of

like will carry you on if you don't piss

anybody off right but you chose another

path and you chose the path to say that

okay you chose debate compared to hey

Carry on that job that is actually not

bad in most Singaporean contexts so one

thing that I am curious about is if I

were to try to analyze

being doing a business or doing debate

doesn't have that stability that

government job will have and and that

can be challenging so if you were to

just share with me what made you have

that decision or were you doing both

first or what happened how do you come

and decide to say that this is going to

be for me not that

um interesting that you use the term

like this is a career which could be

great because that greatness is somewhat

a conditioning of our culture our

society that tells us well these are the

sort of things you should aspire to yes

especially in Singapore right working

for the government

um following the footsteps of uh great

civil servants that we've had before as

well it's something that we should

aspire to there's a lot of prestige

associated with PSE and the scholarships

that are given out as well not true for

some other countries where you know

being a civil service is like oh you

couldn't get any other job that kind of

stuff so it's different from someone

correct yeah but it is here and I guess

all of us were affected by that and

that's why we wanted to push for these

sort of accolades and scholarships I

mean to be blunt Harvard is quite

wealthy I mean they have like billions

of dollars in endowment and they did say

you know if you want to come and you

don't have money we'll just pay for you

yeah so no undergraduate will go to

Harvard in need so I didn't have to take

the PSE call scholarship and I didn't

have to take the bond and some of my

friends were saying you're quite stupid

why bind yourself you know to a decision

and at that point our conditioning is

strong you know and the narrative is

that you should take this bring glory to

the family the clan the school all this

kind of stuff and so you take it yeah

and at that point in time I really did

want to become a diplomat

um I was excited I had the idea of going

to other countries meeting people from

other cultures because that's what I did

I'm an immigrant you know came to

Singapore when I was 10. so I thought I

would be a good fit for that and to a

large extent I was then some pull and

push factors started to come in one I

don't think we ever know what the full

extent of our jobs will be like never

yeah and there were some interesting

things about the Diplomatic service if I

can share here that one might not have

considered uh what do you think when you

hear a diplomat what do you do

attendance

um negotiate things before they things

get out of hand all the fancy attractive

stuff right tuxedos oh yeah yeah that

kind of stuff yeah so attend dinners and

all that

um special line correct yeah and they're

there they're there they're there and

you know and MFA was great and giving

you the training for it I mean they were

teaching us how to wear suits properly

like you know color coordinate that kind

of stuff and they'll give you language

training to the postings that you're

going to so a lot of preparation is

given right but there's some aspects of

the job which are something you can't

avoid you are going to have to spend

three years abroad for your posting yeah

then you come back for three years there

you go

um so I was in New Delhi uh in India at

the Singapore High commission right but

because you're doing that three years

abroad three years back three years

abroad I mean as a bachelor that's okay

but what happens once you settle down

because your spouse is going to have to

come along yes have to put their career

on Hiatus because it's really hard to

get a job like telling everyone in that

new country that oh I'm a diplomatic

spouse and they're like oh you're going

to run away at some point man and what

do you do when you have kids yeah right

because

um trying to raise a child at two

different education systems can be

brutal and true I I've seen how that

transformation can take a lot to adjust

to so those begin you know um popping up

as some thoughts is this the path that I

want to stay in and probably not filming

at that point then the pull factor came

from the fact that I think like all AC

Alum were all

um deeply connected either in spirit or

in my case just a little bit more

because I think that our co-curricular

activities like drama choir and debate

have a healthy tradition of bringing

back alumni keeping that tradition

strong so that we can act as advisors as

coaches I think that's a great thing

yeah and I was doing that for debate

even when I was in the Civil Service so

with another

ex-deer who was at the Ministry of

Finance and I was at the Ministry of

Foreign Affairs we actually managed to

do full-time coaching between the two of

us but it was so hard you know with the

time constraints and the kids were

having to stay back so late to

accommodate our schedules as well so we

could only do it for one year right but

by then my appetite was already wetted I

enjoy this I

um it's going to be a pay cut for sure

but when the bond was about to end and

this one is what the PSC is called the

PSE scholarship so it's a six year born

okay and uh you get a 10 month discount

um because you serve national service

okay and so and as my

the countdown to the end of the bond was

coming and then I had to start to think

if I want to try something new Now's the

Time right because if you stay anywhere

regardless of whether that's you know

that that place is suitable for you or

not it gets harder to leave the inertia

is strong sometimes your pay is just too

good to leave at that point you might

not have that physical energy or the uh

the mental alertness to be able to

adjust to the new job as well so I

thought okay I am I'm a free man at the

age of well 32 right so let's just uh

fling myself into the unknown and then

just try to do this full time and it's

worked out

awesome yeah so one thing I'm very

curious whenever I talk to her about

people to people about careers

um it is if we talk about following your

passion passion actually breaks I Define

passion three different things right so

one of them is interest that means

topics that you can just talk about for

hours and hours right the other one is

strengths tasks that you do that feels

natural right it comes naturally to use

like almost when you pick up the tools

it's very light somebody else is very

heavy and the last one is values so

values is am I aligned to this as my

priority in life is this my tenant in

life so

I wouldn't find out from you

for debate from a scale 0 to 10 10 being

you feel very energized you look forward

to it the topic excites you interest

level right zero means that you dreamed

you feel drained what is the number oh

wow it's at a nine okay yeah so deeply

passionate about the activity

um I was the debater right it's just

making JC um this is in both secondary

school and JC it was not a big deal in

secondary school right I don't think ACS

really felt the need to devote that mind

um you know that much resources to uh

debating because they're like your ACS

boys you can you can speak

um we were national champions in our SEC

four year by the way wow okay right okay

Without Really Trying that hard yeah so

that was the thing but um

but once um it was I was in JC and I was

still doing track and field once upon a

time when I was much you know fitter and

faster those are the days but

um the coach at that time and she was

also our head of department for the art

and literature she essentially said that

if we're going to do debate this is

going to be a lot more serious and I'm

gonna push you to the like to the

Pinnacle of this particular activity you

will need to give yourself a little bit

of time make sure you can handle it

right and she didn't discourage me from

doing other stuff in fact she encouraged

me and said Fitness is good for you go

and run and track him so carry on for a

train yeah exactly but I was living in

Tampines and going from Tampines to

Bonavista every day plus I was taking um

third language French in bishan at that

time it just became a little bit too

difficult for me to handle yeah so I did

have to drop track and field but then

um we went all the way with debate I was

in the national team for debate and

there is a world championship for that

as well and so that's where I got that

debt in this activity which gave me both

the credentials as well as the desire to

carry on with this activity that's why

it's annoying because I can see how

some individuals through this activity

can completely change your your mindset

your perspective of the world yeah right

and I think that I have a little bit of

an edge over the others because I have

seen how the way that you view the world

and the perspectives that you're locked

into can change because Myanmar was very

different from Singapore I mean they

sometimes say that Singapore doesn't

have a lot of like information you know

freely provided a lot of stuff is hidden

I mean that was a military dictatorship

that I escaped from so it's a completely

different thing and I saw my eyes being

opened when I upon arriving in Singapore

and but when I then did debate then I

was really starting to view things from

completely different actors perspectives

trying to appreciate

um

the value of different philosophies

different thoughts as well as the lives

lived by people around the world and

that was just something that I

truly felt Singapore Indians would

benefit from right and that's why I

wanted to go into debate and every time

something just clicks you know with the

kids and they just go oh yeah I never

saw it that way

true I guess if I if I were someone from

a minority race I wouldn't be feeling

this privilege and those are the magic

moments that I'm always talking about

those are the highs I get right so if I

were to try to pinpoint all the way back

to your youngest memory or earliest

memory of thinking about debate when

would that be so that was and

um

truly thinking about the activity so I

did it just as an activity in secondary

school because teachers tell me I just

show up deliver a speech again it's just

a fun thing for me to do I think that

when I was debating for the national

team right and I was going up against

um the Americans right good speakers

but we really see the world in different

ways right and I realized that when we

were having a debate about democracy and

they were just you know lavishing Praise

on the system right right oh this is the

best thing since sliced bread blah blah

blah

and I realize oh hang on they're not

they're not saying this because that's

their side and they were assigned you

know the pro-democracy side as they were

this is a genuine belief system they

were so lucky to have gotten that side

in the debate but imagine them on the

other side yeah America is terrible our

system of government doesn't work

because it's bad yeah and but whereas in

Singapore uh yeah I mean we've had

schools that I have debated would have

taken the pro-democracy side but you can

always tell that's a side that they have

intellectually wedded themselves too

yeah sure yeah right and here we are on

the Singapore side and going no you've

got to be careful with democracy it

doesn't always work

um you need a whole bunch of

Institutions to be built up in order

before you can get it to work properly

you need literacy you need safety all of

this stuff

and then the Americans were looking at

us like we were just like speaking Greek

to them you know they were like you're

kidding right right and it was like a

genuine event right where like we really

had a clash of cultures right and that's

when I realized that debate offered this

opportunity and then I really should

have looked back on all of the debates

and the path and really thrown myself

trying to put on the boots of an

American and saying that yeah this is

the best System since sliced bread and

that probably make you grow the most

right and forces you to see things from

the other perspective a lot more yeah

right so very grateful for that match

yeah so what I'm hearing sometimes that

you're sharing is that there is there's

a kind of overlap

um

that their debate helps you to open up

your mind to see different facets and

the whole posing views together still

respecting both views so that's one side

the other side is that when you went to

work you went for

uh foreign affairs and you wanted to be

a diplomat yeah which the whole idea of

each country having their own core

belief systems and you trying to match

it yep while respecting each other and

is there any correlation uh in the

broader theme of your life to say that

there's something about respecting each

other's points of views that I want to

be able to just go all the way in I

think that

a lot of the lessons that I picked up as

a diplomat really cross-apply to debate

and I'm really grateful for the training

that I received or maybe is that away

what maybe who knows

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intersectionality as it were um

the surprising thing about diplomats

which a lot of people will not know

because we they always assume you are

the conciliary you know individual

because we've got the Armed Forces to be

the stick right you're the carrot you go

and play nice diplomats are supposed to

be tough because we're a small country

yeah um our diplomatic service is also

similarly small and for small countries

to be noticed in the big world it's not

easy and it's a little bit of a shock

when you greet other diplomats out of

function Etc and you say I'm from

Singapore and they look a bit stunned

because some of them did not really

think that one we would have an embassy

there some of them appear to be looking

at me like are you a real country sort

of stuff yeah and when I realized that

certain Ministries wouldn't even give us

the time of day because oh you're not

the British you're not the Americans

yeah why should we talk to you you know

growing up in Singapore we kind of we

thought that you know we should be the

other way right yeah we were a success

story of Asia yeah the the world to the

first and all that kind of stuff and

then when you realize no one cares about

you man humility man yeah gives us

humility but then our diplomats

therefore have to be a little bit more

aggro yeah

you need to be a bit more vocal it means

be a larger presence so that you can

push Singapore

and and the values that we have in the

principles that we have and and you

should fight for them yeah and I think

that's why I learned which cross applies

to debate if you believe that your

position is worthwhile yeah you've got

to speak up for it and you shouldn't

just like be absent at the meetings not

voting on them yeah

um and you know

if that's the case you stand to lose out

the most in the long run I'm sure some

people will a bit puzzled by our very

overt uh support for Ukraine in the

current conflict against Russia because

I think our ministry has come out very

strongly in favor in the U.N and all

that as well but I think it's because

um there's a belief that smaller Nations

need to stand together right and you

have the solidarity as well and we will

be vocal about it we won't hide yes

you're not trying to play Both Sides as

well yeah right so that's great yeah but

at the same time the other thing that

MFA and the Diplomatic call would have

taught me is that

different people react to messages

differently yeah and trying to get

through to them being persuasive using

different techniques should be something

that I learned yeah because you got to

figure out what matters to you yeah all

right and it could be a completely

different thing compared to what matters

to Singapore and singaporeans yeah and

taking that and trying to teach it to my

kids is very very difficult at times

because frankly a lot of our students

are very privileged in not having to

worry about how life would have been

different yeah right how life can be

better Etc because we already have the

luxury of a great education system Etc

second I don't think they have the

bandwidth

just clear the next exam

right our time Horizon would have been

like if you're in secondary school were

we even thinking of JC not not really

yeah it's a yeah it's a normal

progression until what really hits you

then is University yeah and what course

but coming back the the idea of muscles

hierarchy yeah we don't really bother

that much A lot of us don't are

fortunate enough not to bother and

that's why maybe

um yeah the things that we talk about

might not be something that

is something that comes from it might

come from an intellectual Pursuit but

more not more not from an experienced

person yeah yeah so coming back when

when I'm curious because is there a

theme that you see when it comes to even

this job uh your previous job and maybe

even your next job because we don't know

what we're going to do right is there

something about

is that a theme is there a writ threat

that goes on that something about

opposing views and being that mediator

or being that stage where people can

voice out respectfully do you see that

theme in your life yeah I mean that

theme is definitely there

um because I'm also someone who is

passing instructions onto these

individuals and trying to pass on a

skill set now this is something that our

teachers will be trying to do a lot they

are trying to teach us

skills unfortunately sometimes I think

the way our educational system is

stacked which they're changing

thankfully tends to be a lot of like

passing on information rather than just

the skills as well so I get to work a

little bit more on skills and I mean to

be blunt it's not something everyone can

do some people can code switch just a

little bit better and easier and I

thought that well this is not a skill

set that I would enjoy or or think about

this is not something that I I have

something which is unique surely other

people can do that as well and that

wasn't the case because I'm having to

code switch for instance talking to

teachers yeah

um to try to negotiate then I'm sort of

like they appear as well as being a

vendor for them very professional then

when I talk to the parents of the kids

different I had to take a very different

tone and I'm like I'm the governor I'm

trying to help your kids out advisor but

with the children now you play different

roles as well yeah with some of them you

have to be the disciplinarian you know

you have to almost like be the teacher

because sometimes the teachers

um have too much on their hands to be

able to play a much stronger role with

these uh with these kids and so I have

to be always done with them but then

with the others the the way to bring out

the best to them of them from them is to

be their friend yeah

it's not easy for a 40 year old to hang

out with 16 year old man

but that's the skateboarders hello

fellow kids yeah yeah but that's the I

mean when it comes to human beings and

the best salespeople believe that

different folks Different Strokes yeah

they believe that and that's why

everybody's pattern is different you you

will never sell a car

um to a person who's whose main main

hotspot would be family and talent and

tell them that hey this is a really cool

car it's fast car and all that well on

the other side you will never sell a

single who really wants just flashiness

the Comforts and the safety of the car

so good car salesmen know that good

salesmen know that and the idea of

different folks Different Strokes is

something that even for leaders to be a

good leader you need to know that

different people have different ones

yeah and in life and in their career

so so when when this theme happens

for you how do you know that how do you

know that we come back to the next one

so first one is interest that means you

are you are interested in debate right

the whole concept of debate the whole

idea of it the second one is Talent OR

strengths right how do you know that you

were good at it

who told you was it uh something like

okay I kind of like went up there and

everybody came down and then they were

clapping and says oh yeah I didn't know

that because most of the time what I see

in individuals is that strength is

something that they've just thought

everybody else had right yeah it's like

can't you go to it can't you talk in a

very specific way in a in a way that's

expressive but yet uh riveting at the

same time so how did you find out that

was your strength

um two different validation paths I

think one I was acutely aware of the

fact that I am from a different country

and I also jumped yet another world

because going from a neighborhood

Primary School to acsi yeah very

different environment different speaking

different languages yeah and then dude

remember Army yeah people are speaking

once again in a very different way can

you imagine like giving Mission

briefings as an officer in Posh received

pronunciation Gentlemen We Shall attack

the hill today Phil yeah and you have to

code switch and you need to become a

little bit more Hawkins

yeah oh it's just a bit more yeah so

even yeah so what I see is that

sometimes when officers are like that

the men distant themselves yeah and

especially when I see officers who are

just come across too intellectual yeah I

do see sometimes men

um they they it's it's a barrier it's

just a barrier that hey you're not for

my tribe yeah so so for offices to be

good

um which I wasn't really last time oh

come on yeah oh for leaders to be good

is really to respect the respect the

tribe that you are trying to speak into

and then try to speak their language

yeah and so at least I appreciated that

I have experience speaking you know

different languages yeah and MFA

essentially formalizes that and say that

on you do have to learn to talk to

different people when you're speaking to

the media you have to take a different

tone you're talking to people from the

US Etc depending on what your respective

positions are both formal as well as you

know on the job training that you get

from your seniors and your supervisors

as well the external validation the

internal validation came from well you

know just me growing and reflecting and

and realizing that I am often chosen

right to be right doing all of this and

that

um there must be a reason why that's

happening but at the same time I am able

to code switch and then I am actually

able to get along with as many people as

possible probably a survival mechanism

yeah right because if you arrived in

Singapore and I didn't pick up some of

those little Singlish terms fast I think

physically I can pass off as someone who

was born here Etc but the moment you

start speaking especially in primary

schools can be primary schools can be

rather uh tough Battlegrounds right if

you don't belong right and so I think

that that that need to belong and the

need to be able to just fit in where I

went right which is a big factor When We

Were Young meant that I knew I was

actively doing that so that's why I was

already aware that this is something

that I can do yeah so you you will see

the enlightenment came from yourself

knowing that this was a talent this was

a strength that I had and I saw that it

worked because the people kind of

resonated with me yes okay okay so

that's the internal validation correct

yeah actually no I think the external

started to merge with that you start to

notice that every time that's a

presentation or something then others

are like oh you know Sam you do you're

the talker so you're right so you're the

project work like okay spokesperson go

for it right and I think you've got to

talk at the time yeah the other talker

oh shut up yeah might as well do it but

after all I realized that

um you know at first I thought you can

do this as well yeah and but turns out

for them it was it's really difficult

yeah right it's a real phobia it's

energy sapping it's it's really out of

the conference it is and I I think this

is something that I read could be a joke

I need to verify the fact which was that

the American side ecological Association

you did a survey of like what are your

biggest fears number two is death

yeah in the grave they have to be the

one delivering the eulogy right so yeah

that's when I realized this is not for

everyone it's not rational I mean but

nobody's gonna like jump out and attack

you as you speak but I mean fear is not

supposed to be rational in this case

that's when I realized okay I have an

edge here you have right yeah and um and

this makes up a lot of other

deficiencies like my face right okay

so yeah that's good yeah that's handsome

people like you intimidating yeah so

um but that then became more validated

as a skill set yeah because the fact

that I was able to speak yeah that

doesn't make you a good coach not at all

you can perform the task well clear

whether you can impart those skills is

another set of validation I needed and

thankfully the structure that was

provided for me by AC JC because you

said you're always welcome as an alumni

to come back and help and that's low

pressure coaching yes yes because you

know uh they say oh don't take the

competition team just take the the the

the the new ones yeah the the little the

little ones who who need a little bit of

hand holding and let someone else coach

the main team whether it's a little bit

more pressure yeah so you get to grow in

it yeah and in a way one of the toughest

things for people to want to jump out

um into the um into the passion world is

because you're just going from you know

one area it to a completely different

Universe zero competency and you're

going to have to start from scratch yeah

so in a way it's not true that I jump

from the Civil Service to my new world

with zero preparation there's been a lot

of groundwork that was done and I got to

take my time to grow in that particular

skill set and then eventually I started

to take money right to do this and

because you need to professionalize it

and then at that point I felt like okay

I've got enough credentials yeah right

to uh to to start

um the other school that I'm coaching

now

um was willing to take a shot at me I

just just came out of uh the civil

service but my debating credentials Etc

was and it was enough for me for them to

take a shot at it and I'm very grateful

I'm still with them right and even took

a pay cut when covet and all that came

because I liked working with teachers

that share my values yes right this is

what they want to do for their kids

really get them to grow and get these

skills as well so it's been a very very

happy set of coincidences yeah awesome

yeah so every time that I think same

thing in

um business also a good business person

would have failed many times because the

competency of business is not there so

same thing anytime we go into somewhere

new we always want to have that beginner

mindset to train and it's unfortunate

that you had that space as an alumni

coming back to hold those skills yeah

how did you do it by the way because

you're a consultant right and then

that's again some a place that most

people assume you stay forever so how

did you make the transition so I did 32

different jobs in my life

32 different jobs in businesses uh

professional wheel writer before

financial advisor Investments I did uh

um Street culture magazines I was with

my other streets of Orchard Road Basking

writing our own songs so uh there was a

journey for me and

um this journey is what I really want to

be able to share the idea that there's

always the experimental phase until you

find that cross between all these three

things passion which is actually the

interest that you have the the strengths

that you have you have a natural talent

for it right and then lastly is the

values it's like what do you value most

and does does it does the job that you

do bring out that value yeah so for me

it's it's a huge experiment of my life

and and so now being a coach consultant

uh it's it's it's everything I love

doing dramas in church last time I was a

creative director of my church and the

ability to stand up in front of stage to

do a drama

it's a performance and sometimes in the

workshops I do it is a performance it is

the hand gestures it is the quarter

pause that you do that just help them

learn compared to just being a

monotonous Professor who who has

everything up here but doesn't know how

to deliver it's just across so so I just

found naturally that my drama my love

for drama my drug My Love For lyrics

where some words just are more emotive

yeah some words are not like like money

and finance yeah right and everything

crossed together and my deep

geeking out and interest for personal

development so long time ago when I was

younger it's always the you know

newspaper everything's like oh you this

do this to be successful yeah go for

this course go for this class I tended

almost every single cause there just to

try to figure out and I realized there's

so many different ways that people sit

there to be successful but when I tried

it out I realized that it has you need

to look within to see what there there's

already a fire inside and you just need

to Fan it right if you know that fire

for example for you there's something

about cost cultural there's something

about uh people who have differing views

being able to talk about it in your work

last time as a diplomat and in your work

as a debate that that fires you up and

you don't know where it comes from

sometimes yeah but but if you fan it

there's productivity yep yeah so that's

for me I mean

I mean sometimes I do think about you

know that path not taken there are yeah

they're very fortunate because things

worked out I mean

I have to be very honest things worked

out really well right because path not

taking includes I didn't move out of

Myanmar I could be in like a jail in

Myanmar could I still do that yeah right

because I fell followed the law because

laws are changing all the time and

trying to make a quick Buck there

because I did have classmates from there

who went to jail right

um some of them because they got too

political and all that and you know

apparently I can't shut my mouth

um the path taken could include I never

took certain tests and I didn't end up

in a school right that is a little bit

more vocal and that's a little bit more

um uh pressurizing in terms that you

have to learn to speak differently and

then find that skill set that's like the

show sliding door yeah I know yeah so

Gwyneth Paltrow just whether she went to

the train or didn't go to the country

yeah totally different lives so I didn't

get the chance to do 32 degrees a little

bit like enviously right because who

knows there might have been something

else yeah

um so my wife tells me it could have

been a great clown yeah I don't know

whether that meant well I did I did the

clown before I did balloon artists yeah

I heard it pays well that's it 100 I

think 150 per hour I should be a cloud

yeah why am I doing this yeah so so last

thing in terms of passion um there are

two that we covered yeah there's

interest things that topics you can talk

about uh for like extended periods of

time and still have that fire their

strengths and then last one is values so

value is something that some sometimes

uh it's it's a sensing that people have

sometimes people don't write it down my

value is Adventure and that's why I

value Adventure means that I will try to

go to roles and jobs that just have that

Adventure so being a business owner is

definitely an adventure because you fall

down the cliff all the time get wounded

you come back up and you try again right

right I would never in my my value of

Adventure would never go into for

example government

because I I'll just question too many

things and I want to break things so for

you when it comes to this role that

you're playing

what value do you feel that you are

prioritizing or you're living up

what would that be

to sum it up in one word is

responsibility but not in the same way

yeah

right and so but

um but I view it in a slightly different

way it's not like just being disciplined

or like or you're accountable but that I

think those who can

will generally and should generally take

on just a little bit more of that burden

right yeah

um there are people who can lead and

they're people who follow best different

rules right yeah and we should do our

best to hone that particular craft that

we have and do more because your

contributions are great yeah right and I

believe that a lot of the students that

I'm working with yeah they're smart

they're clever yeah you know and

sometimes they know things that you

absolutely no hope of like doing and

some of them are actually quite um

brilliant in areas that I would have no

hope in like for instance I really am

terrible if I'm going to be picking

stocks to invest in and all that not my

thing can I leave that to my wife yeah

yeah and uh but some of these kids have

been investing like you know Shadow

investing like they make their parents

uh pick the stocks and then they do it

in their names so it's 12 well right and

one of my students like he picked Amazon

at 12. yeah he can retire now he's 18.

right okay right okay but I I I probably

would have picked like you know a

company Blockbuster

yeah everybody watches videos yeah so

um and but these guys and girls yeah

right all of them are going to become

the leaders in the future yeah which

given the profiles the schools that they

go to and even if they're not leaders at

the national stage they're going to be

leaders in their communities yeah

they're going to be leaders

um in their companies and I felt you

need to know how to empathize with other

people you need to look at things from

your employees and your citizens

perspective and you need to be able to

reach out to them and convince them that

the things that you want to do for them

are worthwhile that it will be a

sacrifice but we have to do this right

if you don't learn how to do this you

will not make

good Advocates communicators leaders in

the future right and I want them to hit

that potential yeah so that's the value

that I really hold strong to so

responsibility it's almost like the idea

that

the the parable of uh Talent right

you're given five you need to multiply

five you're given one you need to mark

one but it's it's not the number that

you're giving is the multiplication

that's more important yeah because

you've been given something so for you

the you feel that debate brings out that

talent in people that brings out that

voice in people and that's why it aligns

that responsibility that responsibility

is it for you you feel that there's a

responsibility that you have personally

or is it more for the students that you

feel that you you are in a level where

you have responsibility and I want to

bring it up

both yeah as well because I feel it's my

job to make you realize that this is

their job yeah make them realize that

this is their job in the future that

right you shouldn't be looking at an

extracurricular Justice to get more

points to get into the you know a

slightly better but that's all we all

thought about oh my God yeah so this is

where I really felt can we see this in a

slightly different way like that's what

extracurriculars were meant for yeah

right and a way to and really your life

values and to find different

perspectives

um but in this case you will be the

movers and Shake us yeah sometimes you

know a lot of our students don't see

themselves as Elite even if they are

right because you will because they they

always told look up look at how many

people are ahead of you you need to keep

chasing them I say guys you're like

you're near the summit of Mount Everest

right and you're not looking down at how

much you've overcome it how many people

are looking up to you yeah right as

Leaders you're always thinking there's a

better school that's a better student

and I think you're already at the top

right in many ways you are Elite and

these are the sort of students that I

tend to work with self-selection coming

into debate yeah so that's why I have to

tell them have confidence but at the

same time do this for the following

reasons rather than to just win another

trophy yeah as well I mean if I can

share an anecdote um one of the schools

that I coach this was unusual because I

just happen to have a window

and my teacher from primary school came

and said would you be okay coaching my

school I'm a print Prime she was my

teacher back in my primary school okay

but now she is a secondary school

principal and uh she's a principal of

madrasa um

completely different environment right

and at first I was like I know that you

guys had debate programs but I didn't

know you were interested and when I was

talking and it's a all girls madrasa

which wasn't I never heard before yes

yeah so okay very different culture and

background but then when I was talking

to the girls name um also had very

different perspectives like for instance

I just asked them like so you know all

of you are Malay like what percentage of

do you think

what percentage of Singapore do you

think is Malay and they said 40 percent

which we know is a rather large

overestimate because this is a different

perspective they you know they're more

spending more time in their own

Community yes then I had to correct them

on some of those but they never felt

comfortable being vocal every debate

match they went in thinking we are

supposed to lose because we're not from

a mainstream school yeah we're not one

of those Elite sap or Independent

Schools yeah whether girls yeah boys are

louder

um we're not even funded right the way

that we are we're just a small school so

we're supposed to lose right right and I

think what is painful to hear it's super

painful and I think that that's um in

many ways I was so happy that they were

able to turn that mindset around because

I'd even bother too much with like the

techniques of speaking and all that it

was just I should have brought you in it

was just like strengthening the mind

yeah you know no you can't who says you

can't yeah right

I know a lot about debating and I'm

saying you can speak then trust me you

can speak yeah they made the finals of

the tournament that yeah yeah and then

the whole kampung came down which was

fantastic I wish more parents actually

came and supported their kids during the

CCA watched them debate and all that and

that was amazing to see the whole school

turn out and support them yeah so made

it to the finals some of them were

saying that oh the coach must be helping

them during the prepared cases and all

that because they made it to the

knockout routes at that point however

they have to prepare on their own

without me so they thought okay this

school's Gonna Get Knocked Down nope

they won their quarters they won their

semis and then yeah last one

they took it but I mean they were

expecting to lose every single match wow

making the finals was beyond the wildest

dreams you can't if you believe it's

like a Coach Carter a movie man like

bleeding believing people and giving

them a voice

right so yeah same one last thing

because you you do debate one thing that

I'm always curious about is what is a

hack that I can use based on all the

Frameworks that you know about

persuading people negotiating and debate

what is one hack that we can just take

away it's like we can change how we talk

to uh fellow co-workers maybe even boss

or even spouse

you know that's

one word chat

Okay so

when we talk to other people we are more

concerned about what we're gonna say the

words that we're gonna put down on paper

yeah and as long as I put the correct

words down and I frame this and you

rehearse the speech and then you stand

up on stage and you just deliver and you

hope that you connected with the people

yeah you don't know the audience your

speech will never be perfect because you

don't know what to put in what you will

need to see to connect

Etc so this is when I realized MFA

trading as well in a way they said you

know the formal negotiations where they

say oh we demand a Singapore do this

Singapore goes

that it's already in a way pretty much

scripted we know what we can refer what

we can't you know and like I can't say

something that mha has told us not to

say right okay a lot of trouble if I

start making promises on behalf of a

different Ministry so but if you want to

get through to them you need to chat

with them see the interests see where

they're coming from find out things they

can say off the Record right right and

then you realize oh this is important to

you then I can change my message

entirely but if you don't make that

effort to chat you have to figure out

what matters to you where you're from

how do you see this whole thing then you

could forget all right you're basically

hoping and praying that your message

will resonate when there's such an easy

way so speakers will take the time to

work the crowd before actually going up

and speaking to connect to connect um

sending out surveys at the very least to

see that let me know what you guys want

to hear Etc

is important everybody sees speeches as

a one-way Street yeah you're just

supposed to stand there and deliver and

then the rest just listen but they're

often not heard and understood or

appreciated because it never became a

dialogue yeah it's a one-way kind of

dialogue but you ensure that your

message is going to be received just

because you bother to chat yeah chat

yeah thank you thank you it's um so you

are it's it's really the low barrier

trying to disarm everyone yeah and

trying to figure out what is of

importance to you and I can tailor my

message after that so it's not about

trying to win straightaways but it's

about the idea of empathy and a lot more

efficient as well don't you love more

efficient yeah yeah

they literally actually I'm not

interested in 80 of your speech I just

needed the last 20 percent let's jump to

bed you know and all that and they see

you as a human being you know someone

who's willing to share something but not

a not like an alien on the speech like

um or like oh someone's so scary that

um that I can't possibly relate to this

person yeah true thank you thank you oh

very welcome thank you so much for this

um sharing your passion uh everything

looks like it's aligned right your

interests your strengths your values in

this endeavor that you're doing and I

really wish you all the best uh for your

future thank you so much and all the

best for your future this is great

thanks for having me on man had a great

time thanks

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