TRANSCRIPT
Becoming an Artist & Educator - Sarah Choo Jing | The CJH Podcast EP5
*Captions are taken directly from YouTube and may not be 100% accurate
[Music]
over here and let me just show you who
she is she's an artist and educator
recently clinched a 3D interactive award
for the Lumen prize for art and
Technology 2021 artists has since
exhibited internationally at the turku
art museum in Helsinki National Museum
of Singapore Busan Museum of Art in
Korea art Paris at the Grand Palais in
Paris she was also the previously
youngest and first female artist to win
the icon de Mattel Cordon Bleu
photography award she's a Trailblazer in
art education in Singapore got she also
got the outstanding young educator award
so welcome Sarah
nice to be here thanks for the very
generous introduction yeah
wow so that's
um when I think about art I always go
back to this whole idea of my parents
saying that okay you know what study
anything cannot it's hardly anything
just don't study uh anything to do with
music and all that so for you to
actually and I'm very curious for you to
actually make this into something more
of like okay this is not only my passion
this is something more
didn't you have that kind of background
as well where people kind of like said
that why are you even pursuing that all
you had support all the way okay I think
um definitely uh absolutely understand
what you're saying I've been through all
that
um for me I've always found that art
offers a very unique and Universal way
for us to engage with one another so I
think that's my very first draw in words
art as a language as a form of
expression I suppose
but of course growing up
I of course would have met with um kind
of Challengers indicating that I would
like to work
um with art or do something a little bit
more Creative
Education from sorry these challenges
are from from my well you know friends
immediate family parents I do think that
it is
um I mean I do understand where they're
coming from I think that it is a very
legitimate question right
um at that time I mean given where our
parents were from our their generation
it would have been very difficult for
them to make ends meet right I think
they come from a generation where
um you know pursuing jobs that are more
practical made more sense they were more
logical they were trying to put food on
the table but I think the house and all
that exactly by without generation and
the younger generation now we can't
afford to think about our careers
in a different way in a different light
I don't think we I think in future
actually in five ten years time I mean
I'm not even sure if all of us will be
carrying or wearing one hat you know
we'll be taking on different roles I
agree
um I think for Our Generation usually uh
this whole idea of muscles hierarchy of
needs right you know my food uh basic
shelter and all this is done already a
lot of us are trying to seek the top
part which is self-actualization and um
it is about meaning purpose and about
like what do you really want to do in
life at 80 when you look back you know
you kind of don't regret exactly and
that's why the constant questioning
right just like about that identity who
are we why are we doing what we're doing
um how are we going to get you know
there their meaning wherever we want to
be individually right
um that questioning is very important
yeah so so how did how did it happen was
it like well your first crayon you'd be
like wow I kind of liked it
I was like no the fridge uh painting is
like everybody look at it my goodness
this person has talent how did it happen
no actually I contrary to what many
people believe I was not I don't believe
I was born an artist okay so I don't I
wasn't actually equipped with the skills
to render
a picture or painting aesthetically
pleasing in an aesthetically pleasing
manner so for me it was more of me
trying to figure out I I wasn't really
good at expressing myself not like how I
am yeah I think I'm more comfortable
here than than I've been in a long time
of just having this conversation with
you but I think initially
um just having just expressing how I
felt in words that was a challenge and I
found that images and visuals were able
to do that in a very subtle way because
when you are confronted with certain
imagery or a certain visual or maybe a
show or scene of some music all right
um you can choose to continue watching
or you can choose to walk away yeah so I
really
loved that I you know I have that option
and people who might be confronting my
artworks also can have that option I'm
not forcing them to digest what I'm
saying immediately they can you know
receive it and then decide whether or
not they meeting in a particular way and
and figure out whether they want to
absorb in this way or now or later so
that's something I really enjoy so
strange it's so interesting you you say
it in such a way that uh it's almost
like art is like I am I'm sharing
something I I do hope that you will hear
it but if you don't hear it it's fine
exactly you can walk off yeah it's a
language yeah so it's like um never saw
it out that way so so then where where
do you feel that it started for you then
so in secondary school
um that was when we went through that
phase of oh you know um I think we had
to pick our our subject areas whether
you want to go into art stream or
science stream and of course back then
Upstream you would be in the last two
classes at least for my school right
you're the last class the arts class is
the the C classes and so when I
explained to my parents oh you know I do
want to pursue art and I do want to take
it on professionally
yeah and secondary school yeah how how
are you so firm that you can say these
things okay so the interesting thing I
think was okay so in secondary tool when
I started to
um have a little more more exposure to
the different mediums they're not making
okay I realized that art is beyond
drawing and painting you know there are
other mediums there's photography
um and it is quite interesting so maybe
I want to try and experiment with this
and when I just ex I guess when I
express that interest to
pick art as a subject like to further my
my studies in art in secondary three
um that was when I had to make that
decision so for my parents when they
immediately came back and told me that
they do not think that's the best idea
um for me then I
I guess that was
the first step where I had to make a
choice whether I would listen and say oh
okay you know they have a point right
there yeah um let me stop here
um and then and I'm okay with it or
would I take on a different approach
which is and and that maybe I mean I
have to be uncomfortable enough for me
to say no I want to try this out you
know and so for me I went towards that
direction
of saying that I really want to try to
do this of course they said no and I so
I struck a deal with the principal back
then uh and we she basically the school
allowed me to take it on as an extra
subject so I do not have to attend I I
cannot attend the lessons because
timetable Clash
um I cannot attend lessons but I will
follow up after school work on the
assignments that all my other peers
would be working on
um in a different classes during that
they would be doing that during their
lesson I'll do it in my after school
hours and then at the end of the year
we're going to look at the results my
results and see if you know I my results
are slipping so if they have been
slipping then I have to give it up or if
my ad results are not reflective that
I'm doing well I will also have to give
it up so it was one year of kind of
probation exactly so but it's a special
Arrangement it is it is and the only one
that after school then you do your art
yes oh wow and so you were so was it
that so your parents is like okay so you
know in those arts classes that's fine
you're safe exactly so you're still in
those other classes but then you still
take this you have one year to prove
yourself exactly yep so that works
because for me it's also a period of
time the period of time where I started
to ask myself whether this is really
what I want to do because it takes a lot
of discipline you know to say after
school hours okay you know I am going to
have to plan my time out I cannot be
doing this during the weekends you know
uh on Sundays my friends might be
hanging out but for me it's gone I can't
because I have to catch up you know and
on top of that my I have to catch up on
my studies too because I wasn't
academically very strong also
um and then also started to I started to
question if I'm going to be spending so
much time
on this subject I'm sure when I graduate
right after secondary for going into
college or any other tertiary education
right
um I would want to be doing something
art related if not why am I spending you
know eight to ten hours a week or 20
hours
exactly yeah so that's when I started to
think a little bit further like whether
I really do want to pursue this and if
so how would it work out right because I
all all my life I've been said with you
know that theory of
e
you're not going to earn much money
you'll have to find another job or you
know you do as part-time you do it as
full-time you
yeah I mean a lot of things a lot of
negatives stick well right
um
art has a lot of mediums
um how do you pick your mediums or what
was the process of like okay I need to
experiment and try this I just don't
want to draw I want to take photography
what what what mediums do you try in the
secondary school to around there so I
think in secondary school back then
um the very
uh popular medium that all of us would
be exposed to is that of painting so we
did a lot of painting but I wasn't very
good at paintings I spent a lot of time
just really must trying to master
painting uh shading tones and so I was
trained very much as a painter I spent a
lot of time and finally when I left
secondary school I would say I I was a
photo realistic painter my painting and
a photograph would look almost well
identical yeah but that's also when I
started questioning so as I progressed
on to Junior College and then University
I remember seeing that being very proud
of my paintings and my art forms you
know like watercolor oil I can do all
that and then one day a professor asked
me
why are you painting from your
photograph and your photographs say so
much more it speaks so much more than
than this one that you just painted yeah
because of its medium right photography
captures that moment in time there's a
particular reality
um that it's trying to convey through an
image yeah
um and I couldn't answer his question so
I started reading and then going back to
the drawing board and then I you know I
I started to get really interested in
photography as a medium and so that's
when I started to learn a little bit
more about the techniques in photography
but and this is uh after JC University
Professor asked you why take uh why
clean a picture when the picture resets
a lot yes so then you started hey okay
good idea let's just try to go down that
rabbit hole let's think about this
before that in terms of Photography
um and JC a little bit uh in college
just dabbled with it
um I found the photographer photographs
very beautiful but um I never really
kind of got into it because
I think
for
if when you're just kind of always fit
with the idea that
the best way of making art or the best
art possible is a painting on a wall
what's expensive nice it's the best it's
the most expensive it shows your craft
yeah so we think they're painting like
old school would be yeah you're just a
palette right and so to me to be the
best artist yeah would be that maybe
something beautiful large painting
that's photo realistic there's one one
of a kind
um yeah and that was what art was to me
that was what good at worst to me but I
think this also shaped the way
um I started to see
education and education later on because
I started to realize that oh wow the way
we are teaching art in schools
um or the way we are teaching in schools
we have to change there's going to be a
shift because we are
we are sending a very misleading message
through students it sounds like um
because
so there's art in this technology right
right so before any technology the only
art is sculpturing buildings or kind of
like painting right right so if an
artist I I didn't do any of these but
then when technology comes like
photography uh like sound like lights
and all that then there's a whole new
medium but everybody's stuck in the past
right it's not to say that
painting or understanding shade tone
lighting is is not necessary I mean
those are foundational skills that you
still need to have but to be Discerning
right to know that those are the
foundational skills that I need to have
but I could
um always explore mediums and forms
beyond that right like with technology
like photography and then now with AI
right
um it gets more complicated because
learning is no longer linear I don't
necessarily have to learn foundational
skills before I go into AI I can always
do something with AI and photography and
then go back and learn about you know
the foundational skills which is not
wrong right it's just different
um
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everybody can go through a different
door yeah and nobody's to say that is
not that exactly and I mean not not even
with art right I mean with it's just
everything is kind of cross-disciplinary
and interdisciplinary as well
um so it's not just for art it's just
even when we're talking about learning
right science yeah no mess
yeah the whole education system I mean
like I have some grad with the education
system big time
um I think so for me it's very difficult
to learn something and know that I will
never apply it in my life so that is a
difficult thing for me and I like it's
like like why do I have to so I kept
questioning it's like so whenever I do
things like especially AMS you know so I
love Biola I look at the bio it's like
oh okay interesting useful you know so I
understand how people work and things
like that I want to go EMS and all that
like the impracticality of things just
makes me question like okay I will never
use the idx I will never use y equals to
it so I come
has to change I'm concerned about
Singapore's education system even though
I still don't know what is the cure
I but I do feel that there is one LG
dope yeah there's one antidote there's
one path for Trailblazers and a little
bit of rebels uh is that they just whack
and then just try something themselves
and then just we have to see whether
something sticks you know you throw 10
things up something will fall and that's
like that's my password it's like okay
try it out and then you don't know until
you
yeah you don't know until you try at all
so sometimes like yeah so it's just like
I think the education system there'll
still be a lot of people who still want
to do that normal then there's a whole
group of people who'll be like explorers
and that is the education at the school
of heart Knox
so for you when you started to unders
what we started to Deep dive into
photography what happened next
um so
I spent a good couple years exploring
photography as a medium and then
finally for my final year project that
we had to deliver right I mean it's
almost like a yeah like a dissertation
and a thesis right yeah in University
um I decided to present a video
installation instead of Photography and
I think that drove a couple of my
professors a little bit man because
um
we are talking about a time where
um maybe there was still photography was
still new as a as an art form you know
it considered to be considered as an art
form or still still something that
people were trying to uh understand and
see look comfortable just basically not
comfortable right because it was seen as
a documentary too right
photography is documentation
um how can it be art so we were still at
that phase
um so now suddenly emerging from a photo
degree I'm kind of presenting a video
installation
um minutes of a a scene
um in a 360 degree immersive room
um so so I think that uh was the next
step in my career uh or at least my
practice
um I felt like okay we're getting
somewhere here because I think um the
moving image and sound is important in
curating and experience and for me as an
artist I want to offer this experience
to my viewers so I think Marshall
mcluhan this writer aptly puts it across
as the medium is the message so before
you want to think about
what medium to use you ask yourself what
is what is it that you want to see so if
you want to say this and it is best
presented in this particular medium
um yeah pick at medium
so your professors will probably be a
bit uneasy when you're trying to do it
that way because photography is already
new you're going two steps left two
levels down to like okay so no like is
this animation
animation student now
um but yeah I I think a couple of them
might have been concerned but I did have
a great mentors along the way that
guided me you know and told me that you
know pointed me to books readings
um exhibitions or artists that were
doing similar thing internationally
and also encouraged me to kind of look
Beyond yeah so what one thing when
somebody's trying to go for their
passion uh um there is a point where we
need people to validate us or we
validate ourselves that we're on the
right track because you could come out
of the art installation and everybody is
like this is [ __ ] yeah look what on
Earth are you doing I'm gonna fail you
yes or that could be very supportive
professors or it could be that even
though they are not supportive I don't
give a [ __ ] I will push and pursue
where do you get that validation from
who told you that that was the right
path and all that okay I think two ways
I think the personal validation needs to
come in you cannot always rely on
external validation because you never
know when it is going to not be there
yeah and for me I'm a strong believer in
quotes So I have motivational notes
quotes stickers All Around My Room uh
and my study desk you know talking about
like a routine and motivation you just
gotta stick to it and you and we know
that we know that if we invest like you
know a good
couple of hours or thousands of hours in
in a particular craft and hone our skill
in that particular area we will get
there it's just a matter of when right
um
sometimes validation external validation
can take a while to come and I think
then that's where we have to look at
Patients right you have to be patient
because if you are in it for the short
run and for quick validation
it's just it's it's going to be very
tough yeah but if you're in it for the
long haul and you can see the bigger
picture
um
it will definitely come it's just a
matter of when and of course I'm not
saying regardless you know that you'll
come to everyone I'm saying with right
reflection you know and questioning and
and then if you're you're constantly
thinking about ways to better it it will
come to you yeah okay so do you have
that validation so is internal fire
strong about external was there people
who really helped to say that I think
you've got something going pursue it
I think there are a couple of voices
like oh this is interesting you might
want to consider it but a large bulk of
it was quite
um
uh critical I wouldn't want to say it's
not negative decision I think it's very
constructive for me at least
um and my parents voice I think that was
that was very helpful actually because
when you have very concerned voices kind
of telling you the very real issues and
very real real fears yeah
um
it just for me at least it made me more
certain that this is what I want to do
so your parents was a positive
or the negative critical critical
critical but critical but I took it in a
positive way so this was still on the
final year project that one it was all
the way from Secondary School all the
way and
um parents usually have that same song
are you sure you want to do this we'll
support we'll support you but you really
should you know they always say that
because last time I was doing basking on
the streets of Orchard Road right so
they will they'll be like what are you
doing now so I'm writing songs so I like
you sure you don't want to go in
University I think yeah I'll go one day
but next time so it's always that same
thing was it similar for you there's
that constant practicality yeah it was
and I think also when it comes to Art
you know with the amount of money that
I'm spending on you know like my
material
um and then them reminding me that hey
look in University
you know
how are you going to pay up for your
fees and after that you know if you do
um you know what's going to happen after
that what what job are you going to take
up
um to pay back for your University loans
right and then you have a brother
and so I was you know I was very certain
I I remember for me when I was when I
was in secondary for going to JC my
first year of college I was very sure I
didn't want to take any money from them
any any money or a single Cent so I
would either make it work by working
um so I took all jobs yeah
um a lot like clothing boutiques FNB
warranty which was great because it
allowed me to see a very different side
of people which informed my practice I
wouldn't say nasty maybe a little bit
more you see what service the service
industry painful raping food so yeah so
I I do want everybody to everybody to go
through at least one week or two weeks
of being in the service industry to just
know everyone yeah I say that actually I
think that every one of us should go
through yeah period where you you try
and be in the service industry
especially like anything to do with like
uh people who are angry because of the
food not there or upset with service
they go back to you like yeah
then you have a lot more empathy for the
people and then you'll be like you
understand why they're like that
okay so
um take us through now you have uh so
the when it comes to the University was
that a good thing was with was it was it
a well received not well received how do
you feel that was great so
um university I then took up a
scholarship to go to NTU oh cool um and
then after that um during my years in
University I think that was the period
where I worked the hardest
um didn't have a social life didn't what
would you work on
um projects and practice I was very
determined that before I graduate from
University I need I needed to get
Gallery representation so I could then
sell my works and have my Works be sold
and then kind of make a living and money
so that I can then pursue my masters
oh okay yes so
um you're talking about so now there's a
passion pot which is just like doing the
thing then there's now there's the
business partner yes there is yeah who
wouldn't have taught you about the
business part because the business part
is a whole different thing than this oh
I have to Brand myself now and who and
who and all that who taught you about
that in University I had professors um
will kind of introduce professional
practice you know to us you know in the
creative scene and things like that but
they were not locals so
um we also had to as students then
contextualize it to our environment here
and our climate so after University then
your Masters yeah do you still do you
have like earning from the gallery and
all that early oh already yeah
then I was like I need to get
representation in London okay because I
have no time yeah so representation so
you learned about representation from
um but uh from professors and all that
but it needs to be contextualized yes so
then I started to go door to door to
different
um you know deliveries knock on the door
bring my portfolio with whatever money I
had print out all my pictures printed my
CV I remember knocking on so many doors
and then I finally found a gallery that
was willing to represent with my work
help me get into your will for a while
I'm an artist I have a lot of different
portfolio I go to the gallery
Maybe the owner is not there yes maybe
she there's an evil secretary there okay
sure yeah yeah and they don't really
care about you but overall we're
you would you say that you were somebody
then or nobody nobody nobody at all
because of the kind of books I was
producing I think visually they were a
little bit darker they were less um not
not as uh well typically well well
received so I wasn't painting Landscapes
and things like that right I was doing
artworks about social alienation
isolation people and relationships
um you know kind of the loneliness right
and so I think a lot of the galleries
who were looking at my works or would
also be wondering you know what is this
student doing here showing me some of
her own personal projects or her school
projects so even from from Gallery
together real so I had to refine my
techniques the way I approach the
galleries what do I want to say what do
I not want to reveal yet
um what are some of the works how do I
curate my portfolio to suit the gallery
that I'm meeting this time versus the
next one
and then finally I found a match
um and then that that was great so
things took off
um I'm an H2
um kind of establish myself
um I made five-year 10-year plans of
where I want to be hated
um where I would like what I would like
to achieve here on year yeah and then
one of my goals was by the time I
graduated from my degree
I needed to get into a master's course
that's always been my dream to study you
know to do a master's in art
um abroad of course
um so just to understand because if I'm
an artist I don't have to study anything
well yes right I can kind of like go off
part correct and just produce something
to a point where let's say my business
Acumen is super sad yeah right but then
then that can already solve that problem
so for you when you are studying what
was the problem you're trying to solve
or why would you want to study knowing
that that's also a path I think the very
first level is to
really understand what it is that I'm
studying because art making
um
when we're talking about art right there
is the making and there's the theory and
I think they both come hand in hand you
cannot have one without the other at
least not for me I think to be a
thriving contemporary artist to be
critical enough to talk about things
critically you need to be able to have
and to have the knowledge right you need
to be able to know what you're talking
about based on the history of art
contemporary artists what's happening
out there what are some of the
discussions the discourse that's going
on
um it also is not a bad thing it is
helpful to be around people who are
connected and most more often than not
that happens in in your course in the
mass in your Master's course so that was
one of the the reasons why I wanted to
further my studies is to kind of you
know it's like professional development
right I wanted to take my art practice
to another level another would be the
international exposure okay since it
won't be a mass as an example um want to
yeah I wanted to go to London yeah okay
so um before that I did do a short stint
at the Maryland State College of Art
that's in America in Maryland and I
realized that you know it was an
elimination process so I wanted to go
there for a short while and then figure
out okay that's not the place that I
want to be at least I know and then I
can perhaps move to UK like kind of
switch around and so you have two
choices yeah whether I want to go to U.S
or UK for my masters okay okay so that
sounds like it's almost like um
we are on a path that we never know yes
until we go there we drink the Kool-Aid
or drink the water and be like no then
we're like yeah I don't think I want
that one actually I want to try the
other one it's almost like um there's no
shortcut to trying out different things
until you are certain when you are
certain you have done that yeah and okay
I think also you need to be
uncomfortable because if you are not
uncomfortable you will never know what
works for you and how far you can be
pushed true true yeah yeah so okay so
then
um you you
okay question would you have would you
say that
um
it's almost like if you want if you
didn't go for your Masters let's say you
didn't go for your masters
where will you be today
I don't know I think I'll still be
making art yeah yeah so would be but
when you so it's um so I'm trying to
think about
for a person who's passionate about art
and let's say they have a full-time job
they cannot go to have a degree they
can't go for a masters and all that so
it's like
where would they learn okay I believe
there are many many routes to get to you
a similar destination yeah and my route
is just one example
um but there are many many amazing
successful actors out there who didn't
take around my mind who perhaps did not
even study art you know I know of people
some close friends some of them are my
close friends who didn't even study at
and they are now really uh well-known
photographers high-end fashion
photographers living in New York City
um traveling around the world
um they are attached to a very
established gallery and they're doing
very well for themselves so I would say
that everyone's journey is different I
think that my journey needed to happen
this way because of the circumstances
that I was in
um I was trying to navigate
um and find a balance or strike a
balance between
being a
I want to see
ideal child and a child that listens to
my parents right putting family at my
Forefront but at the same time not
giving up my passion
yeah so I think that that route works
for me I think if I were to turn that in
time would I have done it again uh yes I
would have
um one thing that I I realized though is
is with any decision that you make
um towards getting to your destination
it requires sacrifice right whether it's
time relationship time you spend with
people that you love
um
time spent playing or relaxing and
enjoying life it all comes at a price of
cost
um and and I think on hindsight perhaps
I would have figured I would have wanted
to figure out other ways
um to maintain some of these
relationships then over close to me I
think because I I really dealt with the
right in
and just really really focused on on on
making my career work so wait
where did they come from like um was it
since young that you you wanted to make
a name for yourself uh or you just love
the craft so much that you wanted to be
world class number one such an
interesting question I've never really
had that question before they're
different so when I was in Insurance
last time some people don't even care
about their client they care about the
leaderboard if I'm number one this man I
don't give a [ __ ]
right I don't care about you as a client
but if I'm number one I close the more
sales so that motivation for that person
then this and how who grew up insurance
agents that are I don't care about that
I care about you yes and I really want
to help you and your family but they are
also out there yes so it's like there
are many different reasons for use like
like two in such a cost especially when
we're younger about relationships hey
hangout come on
sorry right yeah
what was it for you that like what was
that I think for a long time it was to
Excel and be the best at my craft
because I have been hearing so much
about
how I I mean not make it and you know
I'm female and ultimately I'm gonna get
married settled down and I shouldn't
spend so much time in my career maybe
just find something simple my mom likes
to tell me if I find something a bit
simpler that's right you know just just
just settle down don't make life so
difficult for yourself because I keep
hearing that and I keep hearing
um things also like um you know people
talking about how you know as a lot of
things to come and make it and how much
really honestly how much can you honest
about this and I want to pull out all my
examples and I can't and and the awkward
conversations right Chinese New Year you
know like visiting oh you you still oh
it's
it's very good and then the worst part
is they totally ignore you and then
negotiate your parent and they try to
affirm your parent it's it's so good you
know this is a good that you're just
like
so so I think uh because of all that it
it fueled my passion to do well at what
I'm doing and Excel what I'm doing uh
some people do it just uh to have a big
F you to the world you know they can't
think some people do that we for you
it's more of I just want to prove myself
I want to be number one similar to me I
wanna I believe that
if you push yourself hard enough you'll
be number one
everything is there number one yeah the
P the everything everything that you
wanted will be there you find
fulfillment yeah your fulfillment
because you're you're pushing that
barrier of what you really wanted in the
first place so yeah it's uh but for
those people who don't want to be number
one yes that's the scary part because
you don't push yourself more to a point
where there's there's a lot of passion
but there's no performance right nobody
says you're good at your craft right and
because there's no performance I'm just
gonna pay you right yeah so at some
point though I wouldn't say it's the
same but I did have a similar feeling
when I was in my final year in London
because everything was yeah everything
was going well I was I got my gallery
representation there and I was just I
remember the one evening just kind of
taking it all in and realizing that oh
is this it like is this it like is this
what I wanted you know and
um I realized that
oh it's not really it like that's not
the complete picture because there was
an element of
I suppose
a human human touch
of I don't know empathy towards my
subjects towards people around me
um maybe mentorship even right that was
I felt lacking in what I was doing so I
was making art making out but I found
that the entire process and journey was
quite it was very self-gratifying but
beyond that
um I wanted something more like I wanted
to be able to
to guide others maybe that were on a
similar path yeah right or maybe share
my knowledge
um not just in the art scene or in the
art world but beyond it so then that's
kind of where I turn towards education
and and look at looked at what I could
possibly bring to the table or
interesting so it's like um you pursue
your craft yes very good at your craft
you want to be good at your craft you
want to be number one in your craft but
then you felt that there was a there was
something missing yes but it was only
after that it was only after but before
that this was your fire although yes so
something about people something about
empathy something about teaching other
people yes right and then you kind of
like now then so after that you kind of
do you try to pursue both that means
there's a teaching part and there's also
mentorship teaching part and then
there's still the artist part yes you
decided yeah that's when I also decided
that I think this is um the way to go so
I mean now and then I have people also
asking me I mean because I do I do for
example share and artists talks and also
sometimes guest lectures and things like
that and also teach yeah sometimes
people I think oh do you ever want to
like be an artist full-time full-time
and I I would say yes I would love to
but I think
um
it would
it wouldn't be complete for me you know
I I feel like I also need the other side
where I am not an artist I I suddenly
remove myself as an artist and then can
contextualize what I've been through
yeah for this person that I'm talking to
and say oh you know like have you
thought about this you know when you
know when you're thinking about pursuing
this maybe you have have you have you
considered these elements or if this is
something you're trying to look for
maybe I can point you to some direction
and shed some like you know actual
practical insights that I've been
through some of my experiences with
these individuals
so I do a lot of personality in
profiling you know that as a performance
culture so one interesting thing about
personalities there's different buckets
that a person falls into uh for a person
who loves to pursue things like Masters
PhD you know when you have gone to a PhD
if given a choice that's so that's
something that I've been thinking about
but I've also asking myself
probably right I think okay I would
because I enjoy the challenge you know
like now if I'm being put in a position
where it's like a it's like a restart
you know whenever I I realize whenever I
go into a new course or like you know a
new area of study it's like new game
stuff on level one it's it's it's a it's
a career and I love that and that's also
why I think from teaching and and art
education more recently I've also
um started getting really interested
um and involved in education technology
so the use of technology in teaching and
learning right which is not art related
uh maybe it's art is a subset of it but
it is a lot more yeah different medium
and the whole idea of how do we kind of
develop
I don't know students with
with new competencies right
um that and enable them to work with
technology
um so that's something I'm very very
interested in now what is very new this
uh that's uh would you say that's your
latest thing that you're kind of like
pursuing yeah right now I'm going to get
something that I'm pursuing so just now
I was talking about a little bit of
profiling uh what I realized was that
people uh it's almost like they were
ahead of a teacher a teacher and a
student they were the head of a teacher
and student it's almost like if you like
to learn something you most likely would
love to teach something right right
right so so that profile is kind of
called a learner like I love to learn
and because of the insatiable quest to
learn I feel very fulfilled whenever I
learn something but the the it is also
true on the other side because I learned
so much there's also the act of I like
how the teacher teaches me right yeah
and I want to do that for others yes so
I totally get it when you say that art
is just not about that but it's also
about this aspect of teaching other
people but it's for you like it's not
everybody yes because there's some
artists like don't give a [ __ ] about it
teaching anybody I'm happy making a lot
or is there aside also I just want to
teach yeah I'll do a little bit about
but the teaching is the one so whatever
is different every is different and it's
great that you found that
um even at Masters because it helps us
to understand that
it is so Dynamic our career is never
it's never just still in that okay that
I'm an artist right so
just want to be able to to kind of like
condense everything I believe that
passion there are three parts interest
interest is that you can talk about the
subject a lot which is now like I yeah
so talking about the subject interest uh
there is Talent or we call it strengths
things that you're naturally good at
people say that you're naturally good
and there's values values basically is
things that
um art helps you or whatever you're
doing helps you to live out the values
that you have so for interest just just
want to break it down in terms of for
yourself
um for you art was it something that
like because a lot of people have
different interests I have like 10 20
different interests right
how do you know that this was the one
that you wanted to carry on going to
when you were younger why not other
interests like give me an example of a
few other interests you had
do you have any I did I did but I think
oh yeah but was it everything around art
you felt it was just different mediums
and all that not exactly I mean I have
always been drawn to well more aesthetic
things right like for example like you
know when walking walking in the streets
with my mom I remember looking at shop
front windows and being very intrigued
when the display was very creative yes
yes um so maybe like they use just paper
or it's all just one color and I
remember just spending a lot of time
staring at it
um
exactly and and little maquettes and
models uh in in in shops and I'm
wondering oh wow how does that work and
then I remember
um entering a watch shop a repair shop
and then looking at the gears
and the well the repairman kind of
fixing a clock and look at how he
dissects that and I'm always wondering
like you know how does he decide which
part to take out and is that manual and
I mean those things really fascinate me
so I think things are areas where I was
able to see that there are there is some
sort of an order there is an order it's
a very clear order there's a schematics
yes but I don't know what the order is
and I cannot imagine how it will look
like so that has always fascinated me
and I think uh with my art practice
that's how I've been approaching my
practice so I always have an end in mind
and then I work through the layers and
there's always a particular way of doing
things and that's how I script out what
I need to do
um which is very different from how a
lot a lot of creatives in this work
um
yeah more very structured actually very
strangely very structured and I think
people will see my world actually some
of my friends and my
um I would say Ad colleagues that that
are not Singaporean they have actually
given me that feedback before and they
said yeah what is so structured
everything is almost like it's perfectly
there like the the trash looks like it's
supposed to be beautiful you know and I
think I'm very much shipped by how I was
brought up and my environment in
Singapore where where everything is kind
of perfectly placed everywhere
everything is
constructed
meticulously and almost perfectly you
know to the T the the trees are spaced
out so even in my artworks everything is
spaced out right the lines are very
straight so just how your mind works
that you are a structured person you see
like order like in terms of even your
desk is it clean
it's a very weird it's it's a structured
disorder social disorder kind of
situation so I I find
something that is always there so I'm
always living in the gray area so
like when I teach I'm very very you know
proper professional and when I'm making
art I'm just very creative and I let
loose right so I need to navigate
between between these two I cannot be
one or the other okay so it's the both
of the chaos and yeah yeah okay so when
you were younger just now you talked
about the interest yes sounded like you
could also divert into branding yeah
right poster design logo design could
even be things like graphic design yeah
and I tried doing some of these things
during my spare time to earn money when
I was younger I did I tried yeah but I
just yeah I guess it wasn't so it wasn't
so much for me I think
so of all the different interests I kind
of like just carried on yeah compared to
everything else because graphic design
had a lot of elements of art like last
time I did logo designs and I thoroughly
enjoyed it this whole idea of negative
space yes the positive negative
so you ask people who don't know designs
like do a poster bigger words better yes
yes then for artists it's like no space
breathe yes like they see me like okay
so interest for you clear cut strengths
strengths are things that it's almost
like when you pick up those tools it
wasn't light for you compared to
somebody else yes maybe that was the
case for art yeah foreign
yes like so for example I really enjoyed
dance but it was just more difficult for
me and maybe I didn't have the built or
you know at that age you know
um so I was lighter for me definitely
yeah so sometimes when besides the the
tools being light when you hold it it is
also that when you are immersed into
that it's almost like you know the next
steps naturally and nobody has to teach
you
do you do you find yourself having those
kind of moments where it's like you look
at yourself then you finish something
it's like hey how do I do that
I suppose
um
I want to say yes but not really because
I never really
the way I approach I'm making was very
structured because I knew I didn't know
how to do it so I had to I actually
spent a lot of time in the library
um well because last time I didn't have
like Google and all that right so I
actually went to the hougang library
hougang mall and I would pull out all
these like watercolor books and try to
imitate because I just couldn't get it
right and yeah so I spent like hours
practicing
and if they tell me for example suddenly
now I have to go and purchase this thing
called masking fluid to create negative
space I would go to the shop and like
really figure out how to use masking
fluid I remember the very first time I
tried doing it
my brush froze because I didn't know I
have to put in water because nobody was
there to say anything and they didn't
say in the book so I remember it being a
real struggle but compared to every
other
and this was the latest okay yeah or
maybe because my passion for it made it
feel like great because it's also the
interest part because you're so
fascinated about it that that five hours
of of time yeah doesn't feel like five
hours a time yeah it does not yeah yes
time just goes by saying oh it's stuck
that kind of thing that's the idea
that's when you are living in something
or doing something that you it's it's
kind of just time standing still you
just carry on that so that's strength
that's uh interest and strength last one
I'm curious about is values like for me
I value boldness a lot adventure try out
something new so when I coach people
it's like just go for it just try you
don't know whether it's your first
career or your 70th career you don't
know but kind of like if I went through
32 and I found it then I think you would
probably not hit 32 they probably hit
five or six
for you one of the value that you feel
that art and teaching art lets you live
up for me it's a lot about empathy and
perspective taking so I really believe
like you know as individuals we really
want to establish some sort of
connection
um and maybe even an intimacy right with
that person that we're talking to and I
think with art that's something that um
we can seek to achieve with education as
well so a lot of times just I mean even
when I'm photographing
um painting observing watching my
subjects or when I am talking to my
students right or someone who is
um younger pursuing art maybe
um it's really about suspending that
judgment and being able to be in the
other person's shoes understand where
that person is coming from why the
person's behaving in a certain way or
seeing something in a particular Manner
and then being able to then perhaps
hopefully connect with that person
um yeah and then kind of bring the other
person up right because at the end
that's what I really treasure love being
able to move forward together
um and also I mean I suppose that's also
why with more recent pieces of my works
I really enjoy and invite collaboration
compared to the past where I take on a
more individualistic approach to app
making where I just paint I'll make the
work by myself but now I I want to work
with other people I want to work with a
sound designer I want to work with a
space designer or even
I don't know um another creative a
second director
um to try to share ideas yeah and yeah
and then kind of take the project to the
next level yeah is that unusual or is it
more of like actually people don't
really do that
I think people do that in the film
industry all right but not so much uh
not very common that because I have my
own style you have your own style right
you can't grab my style
okay okay okay so yeah I mean there's
individualistic individualistic um
expression that uh but so interesting
that you you kind of look forward to
that collaboration very cool
it was initially very disconcerting
because
it's out of my control and I love
control right I love movies sure yeah
there's no more yeah so I really
struggle with it but
I mean with time you'll figure out yeah
it's okay you know it's it's going to be
fine and and in fact I think it is very
important because exchanging ideas and
knowledge with other people
um that's the way forward you know and
what better way to do it via
collaboration yeah
all right all right so
um I like when you say the the idea of
empathy I do feel that sometimes
uh from the little understory I have
about is that some speaks to you some
doesn't speak to you right and the whole
idea of art is the idea of also
um is a reflection of the things that
human beings we don't really are in tune
to which is sometimes emotion and
sometimes who we really are I identity
you know these very deep things that we
kind of cover in our society because
everything's about here logic everything
is about that but it's not about who you
are what does it represent uh What
analogy does that show about you if you
paint something about loneliness uh
there was a part of my life that felt
that way and then just because of that
then there's a little brighter
brightness inside me the whole empathy
part
um
I think I kind of see it uh when when
people talk about art and people talk
empathy and um but for you when you're
painting all that is then you is that in
the back of your mind that how does that
person feel
when he sees that oh what do I want that
person to take away definitely I think
that's always at the back of my head yes
when I am putting a work out there how
do I want my viewers to approach it
um what do I want them to feel for yeah
so that's always
um something that I think about when
creating works also when photographing
uh and documenting my scenes um also
wondering and thinking about what the
other person or the subject is feeling
um and that also helps me in a way
decide on whether or not to include
certain scenes in my world because some
of this individuals and the subject
matter could actually be invulnerable
positions where where maybe it is less
lettering for them to be included in a
particular scene and that is a very big
aspect of decision making like when it
comes to making a book or composite
right what to live in what to take out
yeah okay so last few things
um
for you at this point of time it was it
is Art it is teaching it's being an
educator it is it is a little bit about
tech part
do you think that this is this will stay
for the next 10 20 30 40 years or do you
feel that hey maybe I would actually go
into something else that's I'm open to
going into new areas actually I think
that's very important to grow right you
know you need to be exposed to different
areas and different uh environments
um I do see myself in the Arts and
education sector at least for the next
few years because I I am very passionate
about it
um but um yeah we'll see we'll see what
emerges from that I think with
um so much destruction from technology
um things are going to change very
quickly and rapidly and I think we also
cannot
kind of
um take take having a single job for
granted because we never know how that
might look like in future right we'll
all be taking on different heads yeah
with the whole idea of everything going
on so fast
um
careers can be a little bit more a lot a
lot more flexible and uh it's also
exciting because there's a lot more
dynamic as well yeah yeah it can be
anybody but I do feel that every time
that we go into something new uh
everything that we have just gets pulled
along yeah and it ships the the thing
that you're doing the new thing you're
doing and I see that in my life also
when I okay so uh I was
um I was uh created directly in my
church doing dramas so I always do a lot
of Dramas and all that it's like when I
do corporate training it is the same
because that idea of
is the idea of a presentation and it is
the idea sometimes you must pause
for a dramatic effect but the dramatic
effect actually really helps with them
learning and it just it's just kind of
like just it there's a there's a plea
effect of you pull along all the
knowledge and the wealth of experiences
you have to the new thing and that's
what makes it unique yeah so if you can
imagine it's almost like you
entire life and you have this entire bag
full of Tricks right that you acquire
along the way based on the different
experiences that you have so I guess for
myself I mean I'm sure a large part for
you too it's it's about exposing
yourself to different experiences
um not just limiting yourself and being
too closed off saying oh this is all
that I want to learn and I don't want
anything else but more of okay I might
not be very comfortable now but let's
try this out and see how it then Works
in my favor yeah so as your identity
develops and grows
you you will also be able to discern
what are some of these characteristic
and traits that you have picked up along
the way and how they might be building
towards or adding on to your identity I
agree I I take it so much like um there
are many rooms in inside here many rooms
every experience opens a room yeah oh I
opened the I see that oh I have that in
me yeah and then you can just now that
room is filled with the whole house is a
bit brighter because of the different
experiences but if you never step out
that room will always be close correct
you never know last one last thing
if I love life hacks right so when it
comes to hacking all that I'm not sure
how heck there is in the art industry
but I just want to like humor me and
help me understand like is there
something that you can share with us
that oh it you could actually see it
this way and this is gonna change the
way you experience something in terms of
the entire art industry what would that
be for you anything
oh I have to say networking so I am by
Nature I'm not very
um I'm quite introverted
um art industry this like life lesson
and art industrial it's art industry but
it adds to life lessons Okay so yeah I
am uh if I'm an aspiring artist yes
okay yes because you all need to know um
you're ready to get to know artists you
need to know how to Market yourself to
talk to talk to people you need to know
galleries
um you need to know curators get to know
who sits on the board of museums maybe
even
um get out there to meet your collectors
because you need to know how to Market
yourself to collect us it's going to be
very different from how you talk to
curators as well
um and so there's no better way than to
network and I think
um looking at it from the larger scheme
of things in in life generally really
need to network I think that's the
best way quickest way to move forward
um it also helps to develop different
ways of perspective taking right because
you start to see different people from
different different walks of life and
that's when you kind of get to
understand you know them right and where
they come from yeah
agree I totally agree networking I
I see this in corporations where people
are very good at what they do but if
they don't Network and they don't go to
a happy hour with their boss and all day
oh they don't get to know upper
management or other people they get past
for promotion yeah so it's everywhere so
yeah I I totally agree and I think for
artists sometimes they just focus on the
substance and the art but they don't
focus on the other part of it with the
ability of that so select okay last
selective Network selective not
everybody is Born To Be A networker yes
right yes all right any last passing
words for you for viewers that um many
got regards to just going for the
passion or anything about passion
I suppose just that
um
I think it's really important to follow
your passion because I think
in various parts of your life you know
at various Journeys is a different
different moments right in your life
you can meet with challenges and I think
passion is going to be what keeps you
going
so it doesn't have to be passion in
terms of
one work area but it's it's really
asking yourself what keeps you going
yeah so if passion is going to be family
you know great fantastic then you know
really focus on that because then that's
what's going to keep you going so I
think you can never go wrong with
passion so it's almost like um there's a
fire just have to Fan it doesn't matter
what it is but that fire will keep you
warm especially on all the winters that
we have yes all right so thank you so
much Sarah for being here today and
sharing with all of us and um yeah I
really enjoyed it would love to ask you
many more questions but I'll time this
up thank you for having me thanks for
watching thank you
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