TRANSCRIPT

Becoming a Professional Photographer - Wesley Loh | The CJH Podcast EP3

*Captions are taken directly from YouTube and may not be 100% accurate

[Music]

on today's guest for our podcast is we

have a photographer here Wesley he has

been an award-winning photographer he

has been doing it for 35 years uh he

takes photos of vvips famous people

singers like Ronan Keating actors like

Simon Yen a lot of different people and

we want to figure out how he found this

passion and how he became really top of

his game in this so thank you so much

Wesley for coming hi thanks for having

me awesome so I'm always curious about

how people find that passion because

most people in Singapore don't find that

passion they just go and find a job or

whatever degree they have or diploma get

a job settle there and then just live

life like Friday and Saturday and Sunday

is your life right TGIF rather than

people who are extremely passionate at

tgim so if I were to really be very

curious going back all the way

what what happened what you start with

was there like P was there like

different jobs that you did before

photography

um I actually I I kind of like to go

back to way to back to Primary School

okay

um when I was in Primary School

um it turns out that I I I'd love to

draw in class so it came to a point in

primary two or three right I started

drawing a lot um in class and uh to the

extent that my mom was called down only

in the last few years right I realized

that getting a parent's call down is not

a really good thing uh because I'm

preparing myself now yeah so having a

parent's call down was actually a really

really bad thing um and because of that

I was stopped by by that to to in art

and all that kind of stuff but

um for some reason even I was about 17

18

um he found out that I like photography

because I borrowed somebody's camera and

I tried out taking pictures and all that

and he passed me his camera and I

started taking for photos

and what happened was that I didn't

really do well in MRE levels I missed

nus by one grade so I ended up doing the

second thing I really liked which was it

which was computers so I had a I.T

diploma I was I doing I.T for close

about six five to six years I tried

everything in 90.

after my diploma okay so just backwards

a little bit yes you enjoyed drawing so

much yes that you got called in I got

called why would a teacher stop you from

drawing because oh the teacher didn't

stop me from drawing actually because

they were teaching right I was just

drawing stuff Star Wars yeah

um whatever shows I watched you know

like so I just was drawn instead of

paying them attention Okay okay but I've

come to realize that actually

um I have a bit of a reading disability

okay so that's what I think I didn't

catch on well in in school yeah so I I

just I just started drawing and drawing

was I think in a way was in my second

nature okay so I just drew I just drew

stuff and all that and it was such an

extent I think I I think it was the

teacher was quite modified like it was

shocked okay then my dad you know

thought okay this is a bad thing uh yeah

instead but this is old school drawing

is not a really good thing that he he he

made me focus on science and math okay

and I did focus on science and math I

did pretty well but I came when he came

to JC time I picked up photography and

after that things got a bit more messy

right right right yeah so after Jason he

went to it I went to nihan for a diploma

in computer studies okay because there

wasn't a photography in school in

Singapore uh there wasn't tamase poly at

that time okay

um so the next closest thing I really

liked uh was um uh it was computers so I

clicked out computers

um I did ux database systems analysis

um basically nearly everything to do

with it Photoshop design whatever I had

to do with it I find that I found out

that I liked it as uh a fun thing but

not as a business right so after your

diploma yes so then you were doing what

odd jobs or freelance or whatever I was

I was hired by somebody I was with uh I

was actually in a company Seiko for a

while in Woodlands um I did database uh

design and maintenance and all that I

tried it for a year I realized it didn't

like full-time job so I went to do

part-time in I.T okay you like the

database things I I really like the

database stuff okay itself I didn't like

the business of it or the the the the

the work

so I love database because as a beauty

in its design and when the well-designed

database is done properly right it's

actually functional and there's a beauty

to the the way it works okay yeah so you

did database for a year then after after

that I did

um

I did database but on a part-time basis

freelance okay because you couldn't take

nine to five I couldn't take that yeah

okay why can't you take nine to five I

found it boring yeah yeah but so you're

okay with the work you're actually quite

energized I was energized with the work

okay but not with

um actually I found that when I was

making it as a as a as a business or as

a full-time thing it's a full-time thing

right I really didn't like it okay yeah

okay yeah it was it was any reason why

you you think about it like why was it a

925 was it stifling for you I think it

was it was the way that it ran okay so

when you build a database you're

building it for people right yes you're

building for a company I found that um I

didn't like the the liaison or the the

process that came with building a

database okay

um I didn't enjoy it I found it it

sounds like normal corporate with red

tape uh yeah actually in a way I was I

was very young I was like 20 22 right

now 23 24 and I I realized that yeah um

the corporate stuff I didn't like I like

the other base but I didn't like the

corporate side of it right so the layer

lays on the talking to different people

yeah yeah trying to get approved yes yes

so you didn't like that part but you

like the the task itself I like the task

as well then you went freelance yeah

went freelance doing that yes and people

actually paid you to do this kind of

things yes uh yeah there were companies

then I got to know some people

um and they will handle they handle all

that yeah they handle everything yeah

you're like the style yeah yeah then the

artist has his manager yeah I was just

doing the stuff but then I realized that

that I really didn't like that too after

a while so I tried it for a year or two

or two I didn't realize I didn't like

didn't like database them I didn't like

database that much the work of it okay

yeah then you mentioned that your was at

the same time that you tried photography

oh actually I was doing photography

since I was 18 so when I was in so this

is in JC so in JC I was hustling

photography I was selling photos oh

really yeah because

um we didn't have a lot of money so you

know in those days right there was it

was all film camera yes so in order to

feed my hobby right I'll take pictures

and sell it to JC friends for 10 cents

profit so I could buy the next row of

film

wow yeah okay so how do you even get the

camera in the first place you're dead so

my dad passed me his camera okay was it

a good camera or just it was okay camera

but then I realized we didn't it wasn't

really what I wanted I sold it off okay

I got another camera right yeah I

started taking portraits of friends in

school

so I'll take you took photos off like

random stuffers and so the attention no

I took pictures of friends

um or group photos then I said hey do

you want these photos I said they said

yeah I like this photo okay so it's it's

actually 35

um I'll sell it for 35 cents it's 25

cents and at the point on time so I saw

it at 12 for 35 cents do you want to say

okay so it's 35 cents right but how do

you do that so let's say I take photo

and then last time is film right yes you

take wrong photo that's it earlier oh

yeah so you take a photo of your friends

and all that right then I put it into a

little album yeah then I'll bring it to

class after about three days so because

I'll go down and get the stuff done and

get it developed develop and all that

the photo then

um if if the photo has a couple of

people inside then they'll say hey I

like this photo you know can I have it

yeah yeah I know why not just print it

for you on extra and then studies so the

more people the better yeah yeah yeah

yeah so what I'll do right is that it is

random that means like you just take

photos like in what what that canteen or

that yeah canteen

um uh and and uh of

um you know like uh

the swimming club you know and all that

we have pictures and all that right what

I realized was that the the official

people take two weeks to

shoot and deliver the shots yeah you

know and for ordering on the school

board and all that but what I did was

that I did it in three days okay so yeah

so you you were more efficient I was

more I just went down get it developed

and just show this people hey do you

want this short note of your committee

and all that because I'll take I'll just

take the shot right they say okay you

know that I would then I realized oh I

could actually sell this photo so cool

yeah so what was it this was in JC

I did it because I was hustling JC

because I like photography I realized I

really like photography it was extension

of of you know my drawings and all that

yeah

um and

um what happened was that I realized I

liked taking pictures and portraits of

people okay

um and it was really fun you know take

pictures of the girls the guys and all

that yeah so maybe the portrait part

helped with the business because if I

take photo of something random like a

tree cannot sell to anybody nobody will

buy it so it's almost like the marathon

photos yeah right if your name is there

yeah then you buy from me yeah yeah yeah

like like like what is that Universal

Studios and all that yeah okay so you

did that yes with no training whatsoever

in photography not a random random songs

their face is their kind already yeah I

saw I'll approach friends like hey can I

take a photo yeah so I'll practice I

realized I was drawn to portraits okay

because when I was drawing I was very

young

um secondary school or still drawing by

myself I will show my dad I will draw

the stuff and um I love drawing

portraits I'll copy

portraits of famous people okay and I

liked it so I was drawing and drawing

all that so when I came to JC yeah I'll

take portraits of friends in fact the

lens that I bought was actually in a way

like a portrait lens okay so I just

taking porches now right so portraits

and and group photos sell to them sell

to them class photos group photos so are

you the official photographer no I

wasn't okay so I was operating outside

of the office professional photographers

I made my own profit

um just to feed my my school didn't like

catch you it wasn't illegal yeah it

wasn't and uh the guys were really nice

the photography Society right they're

actually very nice folks

um

they really seem to mind because end of

day I think it they they had their own

priority yeah um so I I was given I mean

it was free reign I just take whatever

and we know there was nothing against

taking photos yeah okay so you did that

and that was your side hustle yes while

your side hustle throughout your I.T

database yes you were still doing yes

but there's still more school so where

are you going to find it so what

happened was that um so in those days

there wasn't there was no internet right

yeah early 90s

um so what happened was that um we there

were some really good Photo Labs

so there was one particular photo lab

right where the guy had a little sit

around corner in the shop this is Far

East Plaza okay it's got Casey Color Lab

he was actually he was already a really

good uh Color Lab so I would sit down

under my photos and all that and

sometimes there'll be other

photographers uh professional guys will

pop by wait for two hours for the photos

to be developed yeah printed and you'll

rush back to the clients right right so

I got to meet some of this um uh one of

this uh gentlemen he became my Seafood

he's an ex Straits times photographer

okay and he said hey Wes um can I give

you fifty dollars go Sentosa take some

shots for me copy the shots is it okay

for you and that time was in the army

and it was like 50 bucks that's a lot of

money because

today how much

um 500 okay let me give you the

equivalent of the army pay army pay was

195 dollars

for men for men no 195 dollars for Hope

yeah for a man okay yeah

500. yeah so 50 bucks is like 100 feet

yeah it's a lot of money it's it's quite

a bit like so it's like okay I'll do it

you were new totally new totally new but

he saw my pictures he saw that it was

decently exposed okay okay

um and uh it was pretty okay okay he

said copy this shot I said okay

so you hang out you hang out around yes

places where people higher than you in

terms of yeah a professionalism

performance yes and because just you

were there yes luck happened yeah and

you were able to gain from them yeah you

probably asked them a lot of questions

yeah I did yeah and then glean from them

and then you just carry on doing that so

you kind of found a a sweet spot yeah

photographers which is the only place

that Singapore photographers went to

um interestingly enough that was

one of the few places yeah it's actually

very unusual because the other place

will be actually coming at this society

called the photographic Society of

Singapore okay uh it's a very old

established one but you're more doing

Salon photography like models and all

that kind of stuff but this was actually

working uh photographers that you know

shoot for events right to shoot for

certain things like interior or

industrial photography and all that okay

okay so you did that while you were in

army yes and then but Army was before

your your it yes correct so you did that

yes and while in it do you have time to

do yes I'll do part-time now like for

example Saturday Sunday

um I think Saturdays oh I'll do I'll do

weddings

um I mean everybody I mean they ask me

I'll just try out just try like yeah you

feel right I liked it so much to try I

mean just try everything okay so you did

uh while you're exploring you did

weddings yes oh

um

he got me to shoot like you know like um

like oh no this is this place called the

barracks hotel right yeah okay because

it's very hotel and there's uh there's

one on sorry it's the other one is

called you know uh but it's buildings so

it's a building yeah so they converted

some of these buildings Hotel so I need

to take some wax museum things and all

that so I'll just go and copy the shot

for them because they needed some um

something that was pretty close so I

just shot whatever he shot before right

and he just paid me the money of course

he got a big cut of it because at the

time I didn't care I just wanted to have

experience we did weddings you did uh

outdoor commercials

do you love portraits yes what else do

you try

um I tried jewelry photography jewelry

photography yeah I didn't really like it

but I tried it's a different lens right

um I had the lens yeah I liked it I

didn't like it what else do you like

well it wasn't right there was I didn't

try food at that time because I I did do

that but most of it was events uh events

photography events or weddings uh

commercial events like airbnbs and all

that yeah

weddings was pretty good I got my first

wedding I paid 600 was really good money

and that was like this is big I mean I

mean my monthly pay was only 195 right

so it was good because the hustling

going yes it fed my hobby okay so while

you're doing it you're doing that yeah

then you did part-time uh I.T where did

everything kind of like you know what

screw all that yeah I'm just going to go

straight into photography all the way

okay that was that's a really good

question because

um at that time right it was

um it wasn't a good thing to go into

photography because because

it's artsy yeah it's artsy and can I

make money yeah can I make money yeah

like yeah yeah so I don't know what the

Viewpoint we have right now by the time

it was really a bad thing that's what my

dad discouraged me same I mean like

everything like you want to be ballerina

or like your musicians like yeah

that is an unusual thing but you got

that from who your dad or from society I

talking from my dad at first then

my mom told me someone bad-mouthed her

and you know I told my she told them

myself doing photography oh you really

make money you know stuff like that yeah

um so um from 90

93 to about 97 at the area I was doing

part-time photography then I exhausted I

exhausted everything in in it I did web

design I coded so so after the you're

doing freelance database yes then you

carry around doing other ideas other ID

stuff everything while you're doing

photography you're also trying out it

yeah so what are you trying it uh ux I

love ux

um website design website design what's

like HTML this time it's like pure

coding or notepad Okay okay so what else

do you try

um I tried Photoshop design stuff

um graphic designs graphic designs

posters

um we'll get them printed absent inject

paper for oh my goodness for yogurts

glaze and try everything okay so this is

this interesting thing yes you have two

things that you kind of are good at yes

good at means the market will pay you

yes

uh but you know that photography was

something that that there was fire there

yes I but did it also have fire that

means well while you're exploring you

were enjoying yourself exploring no

after one year of almost everything I

got very bored so I tried for about a

year okay then I felt oh it's boring I

just let's try something else yeah I

just kept on moving to trying different

stuff so I tried

um different different facts many

different facets of I.T and then once

that is you tried it out once it's

closed yes you were like what what was

the point that says you know what screw

this whole thing I just got to go

straight into philosophy um yeah so I

realized there's nothing left to try

right

um I said okay how about making

computers I did that too okay

um it's building it last time like

always building building it

um but much in profit I found out was

very low it was too low because I paid

now I think the profit margin is only

about 50 to 100 okay and it's a lot of

time it's a lot of time right I even

explored um doing you know

um you know uh Tamiya building tanks and

all that right

cars and tanks and all that everyone all

that you need the profit margin was like

30 bucks I'm like gonna spend 10 hours

doing 40 you know so I I realized that I

needed it to be

uh sustainable okay yeah okay so could

yes right so so it didn't do that then

yes so you you you you went yes you quit

your freelance I.T yes and you went full

on freelance photography yes and

take me to when you're doing freelance

are you just like you know it doesn't

matter whatever jobs yes yes uh you

didn't major in anything yet no I didn't

major anything yet or what was

interesting now that I mentioned it was

very interesting was that so when I did

Photography in JC right

um they came a timer when

um the council at that time this is a

story in itself it's actually quite

bizarre

um

council at the time they said hey uh we

you know we we wanted to do for the prom

night right for seniors night I want to

do a montage of you know like school

life and everything yeah um and the

official photographers for the scooter

the photography didn't want to do it

because it's near a levels right okay so

you'd rather just study that you know

but you don't need to work because like

there's no more CCS they should be

stopping this yes right he said can you

uh it's they don't do it no do you want

to do it I said oh does it mean I have

free film he said yeah okay

you're not paid I don't know but free

film is important to you free film

because film film was including um and

it's a slight film so including process

I think it's about 12 bucks a pop it's

expensive they give me about five rolls

and if I run it was gold and 60 shots

you know right it was amazing so it's 60

shots and I covered school life I

realized I really liked it I mean to

this day I still remember the shots that

you said should kids walking around

doing stuff you know like I went early

in the morning to catch a sunrise

hitting the school because I saw

lifestyle lifestyle right whatever

normally yes just yes see in school

absolutely and okay so help us help us

understand because most of the people

have no idea what film is yes and and

how precious it is yes

what about this well five rows yes and

each one is twelve each one is

36 shots yeah so I get about about three

oh sorry they'll need my back only three

rows I only took about maybe 180 shots

there but okay yeah okay absolutely so

and that was precious because you were

trying to hone your your basically

anything like as long as I can try

camera correct as long as anybody gives

me a chance yes any opportunity somebody

give me a chance three not free yes okay

so one thing I realized in in terms of

trying to find your passion a lot of

people try to put remuneration and

reward yes in front of things that you

want to just try out for free right so a

lot of people like if I'm not getting

paid I'm not gonna do it right right so

what is your view on that oh that's a

very interesting question

um so I'm gonna continue the story okay

because that's got a link to what yes

the entire yeah so at that time the

council couldn't pay me but all kids

right 18 year olds who couldn't be paid

so they use the photos uh on Cena's

night and

um seven

nine years later nine years later I got

a call from the college

and they said Hey Hey where's

you know the photos you the slides you

took of seniors for seniors night

um nine years ago right do you know

we've been using them for School open

house I said what seriously

I was like so the time I was 18 now so

in in 97 98 was about 28 something years

old I was shocked I was like what you're

using all these photos

um and I said wow okay if that kid

needed let me tell you yeah about seven

years later he told me because at the

time you know and it's a slice so in the

old days there was no PowerPoint it was

just basically slight projector and all

that the soldier was no PowerPoint no

computers

so when you projected IT projects onto

the wall right it's always a slight not

a negative so a slightly yes okay yeah

yeah yeah so they said it was to be

using it would you like to come back to

the school and do more wow I said yeah

why not man so I wish I went back to the

school back in my 97 98 yes um and this

was close to the near the tail end of my

I.T stuff really because I was trying

web designers yeah last thing yeah so I

went back to the school now this the

teacher in charge of publicity yeah at

that point in time he said where's I

have to tell you first we do not have

money okay

I'm just going to pay you on a parole

basis right so in in back in the days

when you're doing on a parole basis

right

um when we take photos for clients that

is a role charge which is about forty

dollars regardless of uh which whichever

is it and there is a fee per hour charge

School says that we do not have a

budget okay for your fees but we have

budget for the parole charge okay

and and I I sat there and I said should

I do it because but I remember that um I

really loved it and it was in the same

school so I I thought about it I thought

I loved it and I said okay why not we do

it we we share the copyright of the

images yeah but I also need 100 Art

Direction I'll shoot whatever I want

okay and I'll do what I feel okay what

this represents what school life was to

me to just say okay we got no money so

it was a trade okay I didn't get money

but I got 100 other direction right and

it took me a year

one year so I'll cover the rugby match

I'll cover some different things and

after one year right they came out with

a whole lot of slides yeah

um and and they use that yeah and

um I made I remember I made gross profit

one year was 1 500 always 60 or 70 was

transport plus film but I absolutely

enjoyed the project I loved it right we

I created something that was I think it

was unique because at that point on time

in 97 98 there wasn't any uh

professional photographers doing any

work for schools yeah yeah so

um this project ended up being a

breakthrough project

um the designer took these pictures and

used it to Forefront

um as a key elements of prospectus so

usually protect us you have more text

than than pictures but he actually put

the pictures as uh of to lead prospectus

is for school school perspectives man

yes they have okay okay so the

prospectus was for secondary school

students right okay so in the old days

the same as School Magazine different

thing all together okay so what about

this is basically telling people how

School how good your school is

for people they are looking to to um so

maybe they are overseas coming to

Singapore they want to go into this

school yes or for the school

um um within the local population they

say yeah this school is really good and

the time the school really needed

publicity okay okay so it's more of um

you help with um is there a marketing

branding correct okay

do you know what it was yeah but turned

out it was a branding thing yeah and

um that basically started snowballing

because people saw the perspectives so

other schools started calling me design

firm called me and said hey can you do

this our school stuff like they really

liked it they get a Vibe of it

um yeah and and that snowball that

particular project really actually

snowball because I I I I did it wow yeah

it was crazy so it's worth it the 1005

minus 600 transport and all that because

you had yes so much more value yeah it

was not one value I think because I God

it's very rare for

um to have a photographer to have full

art Direction

in any project okay so I traded my my

fees for other direction which is it's

very very hard to do so

um for me that was a good trade okay and

it turned out to be a good gamble okay

yeah Okay cool so that was and and

because of that do you would you say you

got a lot more jobs so at that time but

at the same time I actually started to

to say that I said I'm not going to do

it anymore yeah let's go and start

photography right

um yeah um from that one prospectus

um we we we show the perspective people

people like to say where's can you shoot

this lifestyle thing because back in

1998 99 lifestyle photography wasn't a

thing it was still very posed you know

very constructive like I actually want I

did stuff that was like they are more

informal feels like

um uh like news kind of

somewhere that has a crisis you take

photo of what's Happening yes it's

almost like you are seeing them in the

eyes of the normal person yeah yeah very

much very much of course we made it look

better and yeah what we did was that

okay because at that point of time I

didn't mention this but I was I had two

wonderful

and interesting and very challenging

mentors okay that basically helped me to

understand how to work a project okay

how to put a photography project

together how to how to understand what a

client needs okay so

um

um and I did that along with my own

style my own style is that I need photos

to have a certain amount of realism

whether it's photogenalistic or whether

it's what I call a constructed

engineered candidate okay yeah so we

engineer scenes that look kind of real

yeah so okay two of you stay there uh

pretend you're cheering yeah let's talk

about stuff we don't talk about children

yeah yeah kind of stuff so I like that

and it wasn't very popular in school

okay um in fact I showed some of these

shots to a magnum photographer yeah what

is a magnificent okay Magnum

photographer how do I do it it's like

like top of the game

um International okay yeah so and he

didn't understand it also he's like all

right you know what you're doing so

but after people started to see and say

hey can you do this one so I started

doing for different schools so schools

actually engage you they called me up

and say Wes can you have money to engage

you interesting right so for that

particular school that shot for for

nearly for free right yeah the next year

they say hey uh West we created a budget

for publicity

kind of like they saw your work yeah so

much of value yeah this is going to be

good for prospectives and all the rest

yes and good for our branding yes let's

create a budget just for you correct

um actually not for me per se but for

the fact that hey photos can work yes so

they saw a proof of concept yes and they

said let's do it so they convinced the

higher-ups and all that they got created

but it was really good budget okay so I

did a lot more stuff right right

um and those images that we created

during those years right they ended up

being on a permanent display in uh

larger than life size in that particular

school for the last 20 years yeah so

it's become a thing um and I was almost

I was really I mean it's really exciting

so so help us understand so after you

got all these deals from school yes and

you carry on doing that yes

um and you stop your it already that

stopped I okay the big factor was this

was that when I did photography after

that one year anniversary right I said

hey anniversary so

um so every time I did it right there

was this one year I tried database I

didn't like it I tried Photoshop design

I didn't like it so it was actually very

funny my patients around it after a year

no so you did many different things in

many years not just one year

uh yeah many different things yeah you

did so it roughly after you finish your

diploma how many years do you do I did

for four four to five years there about

okay so four or five years you tried out

many different things every time after

one year I got bored then you went on to

something yeah yeah so you were still

working full time but in a freelance

basis yes yes which is something that

you were still discovering discovering

yes you ever think that I.T is going to

be your baby rather than photography at

that point when I started I.T I thought

that it would be my baby because I love

it I absolutely love I mean in school

right um I loved uh doing ux stuff like

yeah like my idea was that you know um

in ux can your grandmother use it yes

the simplest way to do it right same as

communication right can I can uh can a

primary school understand what you're

saying absolutely yeah things like that

absolutely so I tried it so everything

but everything after one year I'll get

bored for whatever reason right and when

I did photography for about a year I

realized I wasn't bored I was like wow

okay so this is interesting because yes

most people when they try something else

they feel that

I I'm losing my energy yes losing the

fire yep but that is work that is normal

work just push on and be a responsible

adult yes and just get the salary yes

and just do it yes what is your take on

that I I didn't okay I I really have a

lot of respect for those adults yeah

that's majority of people but I didn't

have the patience I had no patience to

do well for more than a year and and my

girlfriend uh who's now my wife at that

point on time she says that you know

when she saw me working out my face was

like

and she I mean sometimes people see you

better than you see yourself right yes

um so in the end

um I I was energized by photography by

photography yeah okay I felt like hey I

really like this I like creating stuff

yeah I like interacting people and

getting people smiling now that it was

it was fun was that would there ever be

a time that I.T if I give you enough

environment for you to practice or try

something new

yes you're gonna do this ux that a

grandmother can use yes and or leave it

to you this is the budget go for it

would that would would it have changed

your trajectory to of your life

yes but somehow maybe other things

affected it to a point where you didn't

have that things that you could do yeah

in photography and it sounds like

autonomy was a big thing yeah it's a big

thing yeah absolutely you're absolutely

right about that right yeah so if I have

creative Direction yes in my ux yes you

give me this budget yeah I handle this

yep

a different Wesley could have come

acrossed yeah it's true that you are a

shun or a God in us yes could have yes I

could have but it didn't happen no it

didn't happen unfortunately that's life

that's life so it's it's always the

sliding doors the Multiverse of areas

yeah if given a choice somebody found

you and gave you what you needed for you

to thrive in that

you could have been there so the thing

that I do share with my with the people

is that you have many passions you don't

have only one you can have I.T you can

have ux you can have photography and for

some strange reason you're just

passionate about many things it is

whether or not those doors of

opportunity keep opening for you yes

sometimes it closes like for me you know

me and Ma play guitar yeah in the uh on

Orchard Road Basking yeah so people ask

us to do wedding uh singer singing yeah

and ask us to sing our own songs

but the if if somebody came Mona brother

said I'll sign you up yes I'm not here

I'm gonna be touring with Mark yes yeah

so it's it's the idea that it's there's

a portion of luck that this so happened

that you had more doors of opportunity

keep opening from photography yes and it

just didn't open for it

I do agree to you to a large extent but

I I also think that end of day is a true

uh it's a it's a clapping thing yeah

um it also takes a certain amount of

competence like someone someone okay my

idea about business is this is that if

someone came to you and said hey um uh

Jason can you sing for this wedding

thing yeah they actually know you can

yeah half the battle is one already yes

so when it came to the ux bit I think

partly

um whatever I did it wasn't appreciated

or I wasn't good enough in ux for it to

to work as a business or yeah yeah

that's why the doors was closed but yeah

external photography people liked it I

said okay let's let's follow them and

see where it leads are and and more and

more doors kept opening no I totally

agree with you there's a so there's a

level of your passion yes your next

level is performance yes if you're not

world class yes then nobody's gonna pay

you no you don't even think about it

right so but what fuels that performance

yes is that you're insatiable back

appetite to get mentors to learn about

it yeah and you become better and better

yeah the willingness to try that you

just don't care don't pay me it's okay

let me just try it out let me give you

some roles let me just do it so

performance will has to be a factor

before the last one pay yes so people

will pay you only for your performance

yes if you are [ __ ] photographer and you

love it and you think it's them good

people will be like this is [ __ ] right

nobody's gonna pay you it's true so

you're not in performance level so it

could be that you're ux you didn't reach

that performance because the environment

didn't groom you you had no mentors you

could be like actually I don't know what

else to read I have nobody else to talk

to because ux is so new last night right

right but for photography you had a few

people in five years yeah yeah so coming

back

uh take us through a little bit more

than after that when when did now you

did um you did lifestyle photography yes

what is next then then you when do you

know that okay I think I'm gonna narrow

down to Portrait oh um that's really

interesting um we so technically right I

didn't narrow down to portrait yeah I

actually still do quite a few things I

do work for Hospitality Hospitality

right we do shots for hotel rooms right

um but what we found uh okay this is

actually a very late stage thing what we

found that um in the last 10 years right

photography has changed and evolved into

something that is really ubiquitous so

photography it was you because uh

meaning that um anybody can enjoy it

anybody can create okay

um it's become like you know you can

like chicken rice you can find chicken

rice everywhere with my iPhone yes

yeah you can it can be famous overnight

by doing stuff so which means that

because the the bear is low yes

something needs to happen yes for for

you to be professional correct correct

correct so I've I've what I found out

right but it was try and error um but

that through we actually did we started

doing a lot more um uh social media and

marketing about 10 years ago because we

felt we we realized that we needed it

because the business was changing and I

was actually getting sidelined okay um

and people forgetting about me right

um so what we did was that we worked

with magazines we worked with different

people and we found out that

um people needed a hook in terms of

marketing right

um

clients or clients to be needed a hook

to understand

in one sentence what you're really good

at okay

true so I I think this was also set in

when they're trying to pitch Star Wars

last time yeah so they like everything

was Clint Eastwood you know the Wild

Wild West they have no idea what does

what we need space and all that yeah so

I heard a story that's they they just

pitched it that it is the Wild Wild West

in space yes that's it yeah it's Cowboys

in space then it clicked for them yes so

so what was that for you or what do you

find out about that what you find about

okay for me was that the clients I I

I started on a journey of trying to

understand my clients from their point

of view okay it sounds very simple but

as a photographer who has done stuff the

old school way yeah being trained the

old school way

um photography as a thing was an art

form to be practiced by only a few

because it was filming all that right so

when you're a photographer it was a

thing yeah no it was because it was a

high barrier yes High barrier one lens

to really a couple of kids it was crazy

yeah and you didn't know what you're

going to get after a few days later

right yeah so when National photography

kicked in it wasn't it was it changed

things for a bit but when um Instagram

came came in right it basically

basically everything shifted right yeah

it was a huge shift so long story short

I I realized that people really liked my

black my black and white uh and my

portraits but more so the portraits yeah

and here something that people really

like people said that they felt that it

was their sense of I I realized it was a

sense of connection

with the picture right then I realized

okay why not we Market ourselves right

and just plonk ourselves on to that

right and just of our website right

completely streamline it front page show

the portraits especially on celebrities

and all that yeah it turned out to be a

good thing because after about six

months to a year people start to say hey

oh you basically your portrait stuff

yeah you know we love it you know can

you do this for us can you do other

stuff like

um group of people yeah why not yeah so

I did all the rest of the stuff but

portrait became a hook got it yeah so

that is that is like you go to the

Tucson restaurant yes that one the

Marmite chicken you must feed the mama

chicken yeah but fried rice is so nice

of it but it's the mama chicken so you

go there you will spend for everything

yes but you know them for one thing that

signature dish so for you yes in terms

of marketing for you you realize that

was it more of the market telling you

that portraits really came out or was it

more of like I know it's portrait

but they so happen to I also have my

family yeah I also have my other things

exactly yeah exactly it's always the

first in business the client acquisition

is the most important yes most difficult

yes but once you get that you get that

trust yeah everything else and you turn

your friends yeah you'll say a Wesley

portrait Wesley portrait so it became a

thing so they they it was very simple

remember yes Wesley does portraits yes

okay yeah awesome wow so that's it okay

so and for now you are known for

portraits yes but you do also everything

else I do everything uh we do quite a

lot of stuff the only thing that we

still don't do where we we uh pass it on

to um our Associates yeah um actually I

don't do newborns

[Laughter]

so it relies didn't like it we we found

out someone was really great we

recommended them yeah I don't do jewelry

um because I found that I I don't have a

deep left for okay for products and all

that so we work with people they're

really good at it but most of everything

else I love hotel rooms I shoot I love

shooting Resorts right right

um but it's so different yeah so a

building yes how does it speak to you

the same way as because if I'm thinking

about if I'm a portrait yeah yeah I want

to take out as much realness yes I want

to almost put the soul in front of it

yes so that you can see who him offer

for who he is absolutely what is in a

building so so what is okay why don't we

expand the question what is once in the

building what's in food and all that

right so what I found out that um what's

really important this is one of those

deep photographer Secrets thing right is

that in order to get a great photo there

must be a story

behind the photo okay so I asked myself

let's say for food yeah

what is it about food that I want to

bring across then I realized that for me

I'm a foodie right yeah I want to eat it

yeah I want food to look very so eatable

and so delicious they look at it it just

say I want to touch it I want to eat it

so for a resort for a building right

yeah exactly right what do I want the

perfect hotel room to be like right what

do you want yeah to be warm you see the

sunlight coming in you see it kind of

big yeah you you get a sense of the

texture of the bed right right right

that's the thing a little bit of not

Singapore but in Singapore that kind of

thing yeah you can you can the sense of

the sense of uh familiarity Comfort okay

so we we just we I found that what

worked for me was to help to this

distill the image into emotions into

into things that people can relate to

cool cool okay so so I so now you're

doing all that and um I just wanna I

just wanna overlap uh what I understand

about passion yes what I believe about

passion into to you in terms of

photography for you so passion I believe

that there are three parts of passion

most people think passion is Fluffy I

believe that it's actually quite

empirical first part is interest right

you're able to talk about that topic for

you photography

are you able to talk about a topic like

crazy yeah anything anything yeah

anything I I a particular part of

Photography that like is it year is it

like the how do I connect with that

person is it story what is it right that

you feel that what I talk about it for

five hours no issue Jason

um okay at this point of time what I

find Most Fascinating about photography

right is that when I look at a set of

work yeah and I like a sense of what

that photographer's world is and that's

really excites me like for example that

means you get a sense of who the person

is how he sees the world or there's this

photographer in Singapore which I I

really um really like his work um his

name is Sean Lee he's an ACS boy he

shoots um a lot of um uh about

relationships he shot his mom and dad

together right he shot couples together

and I I found it very interesting

because the way that he looks at people

and the way he understands the world it

basically just excites me so I'm really

about discovering what the artist is

about what their story and what their

narrative is and that's that's really

exciting we can talk about it for ages

you know okay what is deep man that's

like uh behind the lens yeah yeah the

mind yeah yeah yeah we love that I mean

you get a sense of you see the portfolio

right oh the photo office sees people

like that right no wonder it's so

strange so interesting you know yeah

yeah I love that okay so interest for

you hi yes super high okay so then

second one strengths so strengths it

means that there's a natural tendency

for you that there's a natural thing

it's almost like

you can see it other people cannot see

it right you have an unfair Advantage

right it could be as simple as I'm able

to make that person feel comfortable

right right but for you what what do you

feel because it's so white yes there's

people and there's

there's buildings and inanimate objects

is there some correlation you feel that

I can just see it I don't know why other

people cannot see it I see I stand here

I know where to take what would it be

for you oh I I you know what's really

interesting I find that the last couple

years

I can almost feel I know what

my clients really want

um long story short um it's like for

example whatever I work with right yeah

let's say for example the business side

of it when I talk to a client because

I've been working with clients for so

long right comms and marketing people

right when they talk about certain

things right emotions and all that I

know immediately how it translates into

the image okay and and this is I think

one of of my strengths that I'm able to

to take that and and translate it into

an image that works for them right

that's like for example a school has a

thing but Integrity about passion about

strength about about tenacity so I can

translate that into an image I think it

could be partly due to my reading

disability thing because I when I think

about emotion it's always an imagery

it's not in words yeah so so that is

what I I feel that it's it's my strength

and when I what and can be granular in

terms when I look at the building I look

at the space I look at a person I get a

sense of who the person is and I I try

to bring that out right the sense of who

the person can be especially a teenager

you know like also a space like I get a

sense of what the architect is thinking

about so I take that his world and

translate it into a photo I take who you

are and translates into a photo

yes yes and maybe for portrait is

they're covered with that shyness yes in

front of the camera yes so you're trying

to draw it out to a point where you

suddenly see that that Soul come out

that yeah yeah and Snapchat yes

absolutely and same of building why that

person builds it certain ways or same

for a clients yes they really want this

this is kind of how it looks like yeah

correct correct who taught you that

um oh that was that's very interesting

actually started from about maybe about

30 plus years ago I realized the key for

having a really great shot was actually

empathy

so that is something that I I really

yeah empathize I think empathy in my

work is everything

um it ability to to say that I want to

be in your shoes and see the world from

your perspective and see how it feels

right and that is really exciting for me

that is my curiosity is that it's about

I'm wondering I'm always wondering who

the person is where it comes from what's

his impulse yeah you know what he loves

what he doesn't love you know the

culture everything you know right and

that's like serious hardcore method

acting right you go into that person for

a short while yeah you try to figure out

yeah under their skin yeah absolutely

absolutely and who taught you that I

mean you know about that but who taught

you that you picked it up or what oh

this was very interesting

um I I don't know I think it's it could

be you know in a way it could be

spiritual but there was some I remember

very distinctly it was this particular

basketball I don't know this rugby game

I was covering for this school is agjc

and

um it was part of the prospectus right

and he was supposed to win that match

that game but they lost a game oh my

goodness so I was like an acjc is like

good for the rugby he also Robbie right

but they were going against all right so

it wasn't it was it was the thing it was

part of one last few games and what

happened was that one of the star

players right and he was hugging another

guy you know and he was like crying then

I threw a step back you know so how do I

do this because I felt that if I went in

to take a photo for publicity right it

was

I was a predator right I was literally

stealing that image from them then I was

thinking them for what should I do yeah

they realized that I had to take it

um I had to empathize with him okay and

I had to take it with a sense of

putting myself in his shoes putting

myself as part of the environment

because in the traditional idea of

photojournalism right the idea it was

that I'm an observer yeah I realized

yeah outside I don't care how you feel

correct you're hungry correct you take a

photo you're right but I thought that

that didn't work for me okay that wasn't

a thing for me I realized I had to be

part of that whole vibe that whole whole

thing okay so in the end I I said okay I

just switched my mindset I had to take

it from a compassionate point of view

right and to take it in a way that gives

him dignity

um

and I did it and I spoke to the that

gentleman many years later you know he

said that he didn't feel threatened

right but he did feel wondering what was

what was this guy doing saying but I

thought I didn't do it so what do you

mean that means you went there you I

took the same shot but my mindset was

different so the way I acted the way I I

it wasn't about the best picture it was

about hey man I'm I I I know you're

suffering yeah I'm here with you yeah

um let me just get a shot okay and he

was very so it was a connection between

me and me and those guys but it was a

former non-threatening point of view and

I I was feeling people can tell when I

do my portraits when I do with people

right people can tell that I'm not here

to steal their face I'm not here to get

my job done I'm here to to be with you

to walk alongside you for the next five

ten minutes and just enjoy the time

together yeah and for me to get a nice

shot of you choose them well I'm pretty

I I've been listening so much about

empathy yeah and the best way to

influence somebody is also empathy the

best way to lead somebody is also

empathy and sounds like the best way to

take a photos yeah to to really show

that emotion yes you empathize with them

yeah and you're there

uh you feel their feelings yeah wow yeah

and so that is your you feel that that

is the strength that you have yes the

ability to and you can feel it here yes

I can feel it and I believe people can

feel it the the person who's I'm the

person I'm taking the photo for the

person will so they don't feel that

you're fake yes they don't feel like

Ayah he's just gonna take a photo

because I feed him this amount correct

he's gonna tell me pleasantries and

that's it yes he feels that yes I have a

friend I can open up with yeah and I

want to open up yes

um not so much your friend because we

know that we do we're not really friends

but yeah that I'm a fellow human being

okay I see you as a human yeah and I

respect yes no matter what title you

have

um celebrity VIP you know ministers and

all that right I'm here to be a human

being being with you okay I'm looking

past your title yeah and be sure to take

a really nice shot of you let's do this

you know cool so it's a very I feel they

can feel that I'm here right for them

yeah deep okay so that's strength last

one yes

um I believe that values play a big part

when it comes to the passion that you

have right values basically means that I

live out certain things in my life that

I feel that this is so important in my

life and I want to showcase it through

my work yeah what value do you feel that

photography helps you to Showcase that

you feel that you're living out that

value and that's why I you look forward

to your work that you do right

um actually the funny thing uh it's very

cliche but it's really about um about

beauty

okay yeah it's about making

you know people always say that oh I

look terrible I'm not photogenic but I

so I thought literally thousands of

people right yeah portraits right I find

that actually given the right lighting

condition the right pose the right angle

the right lens actually there's there is

a shot that can be actually be really

quite nice

that say something about you yeah makes

you look good so for me so is to my job

is to find the angle yeah that tilt of

the head that look in the eye that

really works that right that sinks 100

completely right yeah so that's my job

is to do that within 15 minutes yeah and

what about beauty

that's so important in your life why

can't you just go through life and not

share that beauty what oh that's that's

a really good question I think Beauty

inspires us it makes for me very simple

it makes me happy

and

I it makes me float it makes me feel

that um there's more to life than just

you know work eating drinking and all

that yeah so if I can create Beauty out

of something that's um supposed to be

work right and people can see that hey I

mean poetry I I look I look beautiful

yeah or even better

um when I capture a a C Street person

right and in that photo right I bring

out his Youth and he says wow in his

mind that I can look young again and

that's wonderful for me you know you get

you capture it gives you a glimpse of

his youth in his photo and still

recognizable of course right now but it

it makes me happy that they're happy

they see the beauty in themselves yeah

right yeah I love I love sharing that

Joy so I think that's the thing now so

it goes for the rest of my stuff when we

take property we take a hotel rooms you

take a food

um it goes for everything that you see

Beauty in whatever they're creating

whatever whoever they are in a

particular place right yeah

when somebody takes what happens to a

person when they take that Partridge

shot that they when they look at it yeah

what do you really want them to see like

when let's say you went through

everything and then you found that

perfect shot when they see themselves

yes what do you feel that you want them

to see

I wanted to see the best side of

themselves that they they especially

what I do with sometimes I do with um

it's actually a pretty practical thing

um I found out that

um very petite uh folks especially women

yeah when I can make them look

um give them a bit more power a bit more

presence right right in my photos right

they for that for that day for that half

a day they feel like a million dollars

he said what where's I look good yeah or

that I I looked I look

I've got stature you know so it's it

makes me very happy that I give them at

a different uh look at reality for them

so it's still reality I don't cheat in

any way but I basically I tweak the

camera I do certain things and they look

really really good and it looked like

they got presents I want the photo to

have presence and and um for them and

from that they can tell and they get

very happy I'm almost I'm happy too so

it's for them to see something that they

don't usually see they don't see or

maybe they don't even believe in them

yeah true absolutely absolutely and

you're just giving an angle that the uh

it's another facet of them yeah you can

capture that strength that beauty in

them yeah and you're actually showing it

to them back yeah it's like hey this is

you it's like a mirror and then yeah but

they're shocked they get surprised like

a surprise yeah they get very handsome a

pleasantly surprised so yeah yeah of

course I'll tell them I'll do the me too

and all that but usually

we'll show them yeah wow I look really

good yeah

cool yeah well I think from the way that

you share everything it really goes I

mean it's almost like it really goes

deep into you right to a point where

your camera and the work that you do is

extension of your soul and your spirit

and you're just trying to connect with

another person yeah yeah absolutely in a

Soul and Spirit way and hopefully

everybody's life is better awesome

I got a question for you if you were to

because passions change I believe

passion has changed right sometimes

passion change sometimes it just carries

on for you in the next 10 20 30 years do

you think photography is the thing for

you all could that be things you're

exploring as well yeah I'm exploring

other stuff

um at the moment

um but I actually I found that more and

more I enjoy

um specializing we do a lot more

portraits nowadays that's okay after

covet right yeah

um we found out that people are willing

to yeah they appreciate a really good

portrait because I think they use it

online and everything yeah so I I don't

think I'll ever I don't think I retire

because yeah I really I really love it I

what I really like most is is the fact

that I I can connect with another person

through through the session and even

though it's a stranger right we get to

have um share that particular point of

the journey with them right and it's

it's in a way it's a it's a nice

Milestone like a wedding

um I can be there with them to capture

that that moment and for them to capture

a really good portrait right and you

know they they they see themselves

differently and some of these people

right they keep their portrait for like

10 years you know yeah yeah it feels

really good like definitely yeah

thanks so one last thing yeah I mean

like for for those who don't know like

my family portrait all that also taking

my Wesley company portrait also thinking

my bestie so uh and we really enjoy it I

mean there's um I think since 19 years

old when I was 19 20 30 years ago here

he took photos of me so

um yeah we go way back so one one thing

um I enjoy life hacks a lot I love to

hack things I love to find out there's a

better way of doing it because somebody

knows something yeah is there any life

hack that you feel that you can share

with me about photography and share for

everybody's like hey actually if you do

this huh you might get better results

anything

um actually it's quite interesting

um

I I find that most people right don't

know they can adjust the brightness on a

picture before they take it okay you

don't do it no seriously okay it's very

it's quite interesting um I only address

ISO if I'm using a DSLR yes is that

brightness uh that's not yeah oh you're

talking about phone phone yeah your

phone I know you can swipe down okay

swipe down yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah

yeah because you have a picture there of

iPhone then you switch yeah yeah you

know that right I know that but I never

use it why should I use it why should

you use it because it is oh that's a

very good question so one of the live

hacks is this is that the camera no

matter how smart it is right you can't

see the way that your your eyes see a

picture so sometimes when you have a

person who's very small yeah and and

wearing white yeah and the background is

dark right the camera tends to over

expose

okay yeah so that's why we have that

little when you touch the screen right

we actually pull down something that

comes out yeah so um because at this

point in time I don't know where what's

gonna happen next time the camera cannot

recognize that as a human being that

needs to be exposed properly okay yeah

that's so when you bring it down what is

it the person becomes slightly darker

yeah the photo becomes nicer usually

um uh one of the things is that I'll be

honest with you right yeah

90 90 of the shots they do on the iPhone

are actually good enough for almost

everything in fact my own private stuff

is iPhone okay I don't use it yes I

don't use um any convenience I just in

your pocket exactly right the best

camera is the one with the review so

yeah that's that

thank you thank you for sharing it okay

one last thing yes would when it comes

to passion and all that uh what would

you say to people who uh I have this

this photography that I have but I'm in

I.T pays well and all that what would

you say to them oh that's it's a very

good question

um

this is a very interesting story

um the best photographers and the

um not besla one of the most artistic

prolific photographers in Singapore

right it's not a full-time photographer

oh my goodness yeah seriously he's

actually uh one of them is an art

director I just I just I don't always do

they're under I think the other one is

actually uh uh a partner in a firm so a

lot of young photographers right

they make the mistake not young

photographers a lot of photographers

um including all ages I'm not just young

they made a mistake must go through

the conflating full-time photography

with being an expert these two are very

two very very different things

you want to be great photography yes

means you must be a full-time

photographer that's that's the equation

it's completely false okay okay

it's completely false so I can continue

doing what I do yes and be a good

photographer because you carry on just

growing yes okay in fact a photographer

that I know case in point he actually

spends

um one or two months of his annual leave

going to Japan interesting going to

Tunisia yeah to get shots and I he's

perfectly happy in fact his stuff for

his stuff is selling on on stock images

on that and he's perfectly happy doing

his work so

um

to do it as a business right it's a

whole different mindset yeah and it's

very different very different doing

stuff that you like to do yeah because

you include include the marketing

branding your social media and all that

yeah everything what about if besides

photography if you were to talk to

somebody who has a passion yes any

passion yes

but they're just not willing to go for

it because I just need it that stability

lab that single parents that we need and

all that yeah we tell them actually

is this a very good question I I believe

right that when all of us right we have

something that we are when we are born

right we are designed

instinctively and intrinsically right to

do stuff

they were built to do something yeah um

it can be art it can be running yeah it

can be

weightlifting that you feel tremendous

Joy when you weight lift yeah or you do

you feel tremendous Joy when you when

you write yeah

um the thing about surviving in

Singapore right I

I think that if you don't

do

what you are born to do yeah in any

capacity yeah professional or not or or

Devil in a hobby that you really love

right you might one might feel more and

more

dead

um

yeah I think as human beings right

um anybody in any country in any any

culture right you have things that you

like to do definitely yeah and you don't

do that even for fun right it's it these

things give you meaning yeah yeah I

think these things give you meaning like

the things that you love to do

um

it can be you know anything anything

small collecting thumb text you know

crediting steps if you love it do it as

long as legal yeah and it's ethical

right so for you your view is that

sometimes passion can just remain as a

passion it doesn't have to be a

profession no but if you have that

pursue it because your life is more

beautiful and brighter yeah because the

land is more meaningful yes more

meaningful yeah but don't take the full

practical route and just I work for

money and that's it and I don't really

develop anything else yeah I think it's

really hard I think I think I I haven't

found anybody right who's happy just

just doing that unless their job is

their passionate unless their jobs their

passion I've

yes I would think so but you know in a

certain way right how I try to marry my

passion with my job right is that

whenever I do something right I do what

I feel my clients would like yeah and

there are times where I do what I feel

that

um I like a lot so I I I do what I like

within a thing yeah and once in a very

long while I'm very lucky I get uh what

I call a commission project meaning that

I could have 100 Art Direction it

happens once in a year or once in two

years and I really love those because I

get to be paid and you have to do

exactly what I want to do right so it

happens once in a while that is the peak

right for any artist that I commission

you yes I leave every art direction to

you yep I just want

you to be in there I just want your your

DNA your yeah your flavor yeah but it's

it's actually I think more and more it's

going to be very hard to do because

there's so many artists and all that

right

um but I do it's just it comes up for me

it's right for me if it comes right I

just take it as a treat like I stream

along the way I'm not gonna gun for it

I'm not gonna do what I'll do you know

that yeah but yeah it's I'm very happy

with that thank you thank you very much

thank you thank you for your time today

uh about sharing your passion I think

most people just just feel that it's

it's too far away so really thank you

for sharing uh how photography is within

you and the beautiful thing about it

there's always a Wilderness guys you

always try to find something it's never

the first time or the first thing

but it's really something that you just

need to continue pursuing and um yeah

hope that you guys will be able to find

that and start to live it up so thank

you Wesley for being here thank you very

much for having me thank you

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